Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system

From	James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.misc
Subject	Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system
Date	2018-03-21 06:03 +0000
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<p8sske$4eu$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(19 earlier) <p8gq7t$1262$1@gioia.aioe.org> <8bdrC.101673$kF1.42216@fx41.am4> <p8oeid$pud$1@gioia.aioe.org> <p8q6td$oq1$1@dont-email.me> <p8qpvm$tu$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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On 20/03/2018 11:05, Andy Walker wrote:
> On 20/03/18 05:40, James Harris wrote:
>> On 19/03/2018 13:38, Andy Walker wrote:
>>> On 17/03/18 18:32, bartc wrote:
>>>> I need certain information, and the makefile fanatics want to do
>>>> their utmost to hide it from me.
>>>      Blame fanaticism rather than "make".
>> While I agree with that as a basic point isn't there also a case to
>> say that make is too flexible and allows users to do crazy things?
> 
> 	No.  Well, not an arguable case.  The same argument could be
> put in relation to every non-trivial computer facility, inc every
> half-way decent programming language, every OS, every decent editor,
> every decent shell/batch system, .... 

IMO programming languages can indeed become too flexible. And the same 
logic applies, i.e. if /we/ want to do something then extreme 
flexibility is, of course, a 'good thing'. We love it. But that's 
because we use the parts of it that we like and are familiar with, and 
that we consider sensible. And when we have to maintain code which 
/someone else/ wrote then we can find that that extreme flexibility has 
allowed him or her to write some genuinely bizarre code. The extreme 
flexibility suddenly becomes no fun at all.

A good example of over-flexibility is goto. /We/ might want to have goto 
available so that we have as much flexibility as possible. But if we 
suddenly find we have to maintain code of someone who over-used goto 
then we may find it's not such a good thing after all.

Another example is Python. It began as a simple and elegant language but 
then accreted loads and loads of clever features. They are not a problem 
if we only ever write our own code; we can stick to a sensible subset. 
But if we have to maintain the code of others then we potentially have 
to know and understand all the other features. The mental burden has 
increased greatly because the language has acquired too much complexity.

A sometimes-quoted design maxim with which I agree in principle is that 
a product is finished not when nothing more can be added but when 
nothing more can be taken away.

In the case in point, make, the same applies. /We/ might use our own 
sensible makefiles. But then as Bart has pointed out, the makefiles 
written by others can be impenetrable. Their great flexibility is also a 
security risk. A makefile can invoke any command on the system and it is 
generally run under our id. That's not good. It would be better if we 
could specify - and limit - the commands a makefile was able to run.

> If you want people to be
> unable to do "crazy" things, then you lock them in a rubber sandbox,
> put them in strait-jackets and don't give them any pointy tools.
> That's not an environment I want to use -- or to provide.
> 
>> When we think about it, flexibility always sounds appealing to us
>> individually as it allows us to do things which we could not easily
>> do otherwise. But flexibility is not so good when others overuse it
>> and then expect us to work with their complex and outre solutions.
>> That's why I would say that too much flexibility can be a bad thing.
> 
> 	So how do you propose to arrange that "make" is flexible when
> you want to use it, and restricted when others do?  Are you not "others"
> from their point of view?

I don't. IMO there's a need for something other than make.

> 
> 	I suspect also that your idea of "complex and outre" comes from
> seeing very general solutions to potentially complex situations, as
> opposed to your own specific situation.  I return to the analogy I used
> with BartC -- if *you* produce some facility for your own use, and write
> instructions for it, you write a leaflet in English.  If you want to
> ship that facility around the world, then you have to write French,
> German, Russian, Chinese, ... versions, and your simple leaflet turns
> into a complicated manual, 95% of which is incomprehensible to the
> average punter in Djibouti.  That's why *my* "makefile" is a short,
> simple, clear file, and the one I import in order to install *your*
> application is incomprehensible.  *You* didn't know what my OS was,
> nor the word-length on my computer, nor the CPU chip, nor the flags
> I have to supply to the compiler, nor where to install executables to,
> nor where manual entries should be put, nor whether I have floating-
> point hardware, nor [lots of other things], all of which you have to
> find out [eg using "configure"] before your "makefile" can work on
> my machine.

Taking the principle of that, rather than just thinking of make, ISTM 
that two configs are needed: one with the source files which says what 
they are capable of, and another that the user controls which says what 
can be done under the user's id. What's wrong with that?

-- 
James Harris

Thread

Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-01 14:40 +0000
  Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-01 14:55 +0000
    Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-02 21:05 +0000
      Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-03 01:18 +0000
        Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-09 01:03 +0000
      Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-06 06:40 -0500
        Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-06 21:10 +0000
          Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-07 06:58 -0500
            Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-09 01:23 +0000
              Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-09 02:28 -0500
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-09 02:44 -0500
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-09 23:26 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-11 07:44 -0400
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-12 21:59 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-14 01:45 -0400
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-14 10:59 +0000
      Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-06 06:40 -0500
        Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-06 21:20 +0000
          Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-07 06:58 -0500
            Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-09 10:30 +0000
  Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2018-03-01 11:11 -0500
    Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2018-03-01 13:51 -0500
    Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-03 09:48 +0000
  Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-03 12:25 +0000
    Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-03 15:32 +0000
      Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-03-04 07:52 +0000
      Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-04 08:43 +0000
        Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-03-05 07:58 +0000
          Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-06 21:37 +0000
            Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-03-07 21:02 +0000
        Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-05 15:29 +0000
          Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system rugxulo@gmail.com - 2018-03-06 18:23 -0800
          Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-07 04:54 +0000
            Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2018-03-07 00:33 -0600
              Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-07 09:55 +0000
              Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-07 17:29 +0000
  Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-06 06:39 -0500
    Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-07 10:44 +0000
      Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-07 06:57 -0500
        Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-09 10:28 +0000
          Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-11 07:44 -0400
            Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-12 22:44 +0000
              Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-14 01:47 -0400
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-14 10:23 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-14 11:30 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-14 11:30 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-14 13:30 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-14 14:32 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-14 16:01 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-14 19:28 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-15 08:59 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-15 19:21 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-16 08:08 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-16 11:12 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-16 16:45 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-16 16:09 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-16 18:42 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-17 18:32 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-17 21:37 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-17 21:00 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-18 11:39 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-18 12:29 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-19 13:38 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-20 05:40 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-20 11:05 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-21 06:03 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-21 18:51 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-21 19:55 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-23 18:03 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-23 20:13 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-24 01:30 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-24 16:48 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-26 19:42 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-26 22:35 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-24 12:01 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-23 20:58 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-23 20:49 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-20 18:37 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-21 19:33 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-21 20:35 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-23 21:10 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Marco van de Voort <marcov@toad.stack.nl> - 2018-04-19 06:47 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-27 00:58 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-30 19:55 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Marco van de Voort <marcov@toad.stack.nl> - 2018-04-19 06:49 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-23 21:04 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-23 21:54 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-24 11:22 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-24 12:12 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-24 13:15 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-24 13:36 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-24 14:52 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Marco van de Voort <marcov@toad.stack.nl> - 2018-04-19 11:06 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-03-14 16:52 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-14 19:38 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-15 09:00 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-15 12:54 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-14 11:18 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-14 13:52 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-15 06:29 -0400
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-15 20:37 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-17 11:51 -0400
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-20 06:31 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-20 17:14 -0400
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-21 07:10 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-24 01:38 -0400
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-24 16:10 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-24 20:05 -0400
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-25 16:55 +0100
  Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-14 13:39 +0100

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