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Re: Programming

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On 19/07/16 02:18, J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <nmhmc7$f1f$1@dont-email.me>, rjh@cpax.org.uk says...
>>
>> On 18/07/16 05:14, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>> Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> writes:
>>>> turn that HTML into legal PHP is to rename the file. Next, you can start
>>>> playing with simple PHP constructs, and before you know it you're doing
>>>
>>>     Under an out-of-the-box windows, the file extension »html« will
>>>     be recognized, but I am afraid »php« won't.
>>
>> That's true (and even under LAMP, you have to do a little fiddling to
>> get it to work), but under an out-of-the-box Windows, you don't even get
>> a C compiler, FCOL! (I don't think you even get a Web server, do you?)
>>
>>>     In fact, the best language for learners with little time is VBA.
>>
>> Despite being a long-time Microsoft-sceptic, I must confess to a soft
>> spot for VB - and therefore for its children - as it was the product
>> that made Windows programming possible for ordinary folk. So I'm not
>> automatically going to push the anti-Windows button here. Nevertheless,
>> VBA (if I am not mistaken) requires Microsoft Office, doesn't it? And
>> that's a substantial investment for people who are just starting out.
>> But there is a macro language in LibreOffice, too, and LibreOffice is
>> free (and cross-platform).
>
> Vb and c# are included with Windows.  You have to know where to look for
> them (they're buried down in the .Net folder heirarchy--start at
> "Windows\Microsoft.Net" and search for "vbc.exe" and "csc.exe") and it's
> the compilers and libraries only, no IDE or GUI builder or the like so
> coding GUI applications is a learning experience in a major way.

Personally, I wouldn't bother, since I have the vastly superior C++ 
Builder. But, without the GUI, why would /anyone/ bother? The whole 
point of VB is its GUI! Trust Microsoft to remove the one worthwhile 
thing about the product.

> Visual Studio is free for personal use (personal includes development of
> commercial applications as long as you are working alone or in a group
> of 5 or less and not making more than a million a year, or are
> developing Open Source).  That gets you c, c++, vb, c#, f#, and I forget
> what else plus the IDE and associated utilities.

Interesting that they forbid Open Source development. That will, I 
think, dissuade a lot of people from using VS.

> But quite frankly, the 7 bucks a month for Office is just not that
> "substantial" an "investment".  So you see one less movie a month or
> have two less Starbucks or one less Big Mac.

"7 bucks a month" is interesting. I can see why people might think 
"okay, I'll pay £100 or $100 or whatever, and then I've got Office" even 
though there is a perfectly good free alternative. But a monthly payment 
/forever/? And if you skip a payment, presumably it stops working? 
LibreOffice never looked so good!

>>>     . It has a GUI builder where one can easily draw a simple
>>>     calculator with two text boxes and one push button on the screen
>>>     (a "user form"), and then add /one/ small line of code to the button
>>>
>>> TextBox2 = 2 * TextBox1
>>>
>>>     to have programmed a full-blown calculator that will be able
>>>     to double many numbers at the push of a button.
>>
>> That's fine if you know what to write. (It's easy for programmers to
>> forget what it was like not knowing how to write programs.) But of
>> course that's going to be true of any route into programming - at some
>> point, the learner has to learn something, and learning can be hard work.
>
> The thing about VBA is that you can turn on the macro recorder, go
> through a sequence of actions in the application, stop the recorder, and
> look at what it recorded--whatever it got will be valid vba code.
> Probably not very _good_ code and likely doesn't do what you want it to
> do, so figuring out how to get from where is to where you want it to be
> is the challenge and the way that it teaches you to code.

Oh, I'd allowed myself to forget about the macro recorder. I did use it 
to good effect a year or three back, but - as you say - to make it do 
precisely what's required can involve judicious use of the electronic 
equivalent of a toffee-hammer.

>>>     And one can combine this with all the power of applications such
>>>     as Microsoft® Word, Microsoft® Excel, or Microsoft® Access
>>>     to quickly solve many problems.
>>
>> Or indeed /cause/ many problems. :-)
>
> Ever use Excel as a data-entry screen?

Yep, about twelve years ago. Ouch.

> Beats reinventing the wheel

You think so? :-)

> and
> there are so many means of validation available that it's kind of nuts.

I'd rather gnaw off my own leg than go through that again.

-- 
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

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Programming HQM <harisqmega@gmail.com> - 2016-07-16 07:07 -0700
  Re: Programming Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-16 16:40 +0100
    Re: Programming Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2016-07-17 09:16 -0700
      Re: Programming Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-17 17:53 +0100
        Re: Programming Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-17 20:31 +0100
          Re: Programming Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-18 00:57 +0100
            Re: Programming Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-18 05:36 +0100
              Re: Programming Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2016-07-18 08:13 -0700
                Re: Programming Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-18 16:33 +0100
                Re: Programming BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-18 16:44 +0100
                Re: Programming Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-18 17:01 +0100
                Re: Programming Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2016-07-18 09:16 -0700
                Re: Programming Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-18 17:23 +0100
                Re: Programming Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2016-07-18 09:28 -0700
                Re: Programming Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-18 18:00 +0100
                Re: Programming BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-18 18:28 +0100
                Re: Programming Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-18 18:54 +0100
                Re: Programming "Ant" <not@home.today> - 2016-07-18 21:12 +0100
                Re: Programming Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-18 21:24 +0100
                Re: Programming Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2016-07-18 14:49 -0700
                Re: Programming Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-18 20:03 +0100
                Re: Programming Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-18 20:24 +0100
                Re: Programming Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2016-07-18 16:17 -0700
                Re: Programming "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 19:30 -0400
                Re: Programming "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 19:22 -0400
              Re: Programming BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-18 16:25 +0100
              Re: Programming "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 21:18 -0400
                Re: Programming Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-19 03:35 +0100
                Re: Programming "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 19:37 -0400
                Re: Programming Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-20 00:50 +0100
                Re: Programming "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 19:41 -0400
                Re: Programming "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-20 03:31 -0400
                Re: Programming "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 21:01 -0400
            Re: Programming "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 05:02 -0400
              Re: Programming Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-18 10:35 +0100
            Re: Programming Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-18 10:02 +0100
            Re: Programming Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2016-07-18 07:52 -0700
              Re: Programming Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-18 16:25 +0100
                Re: Programming Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2016-07-18 08:32 -0700
                Re: Programming Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-18 16:36 +0100
    Re: Programming BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-18 13:02 +0100
      Re: Programming Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-18 13:38 +0100
  Re: Programming BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-16 22:38 +0100
  Re: Programming Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2016-07-17 09:20 -0700

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