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Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI

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On 16/01/2016 08:29, Rod Pemberton wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Jan 2016 11:32:45 +0000
> James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> wrote:

> [all OT]

...

>> I am not sure what you mean there. Do you mean that being in
>> the EU should be great for the UK economy?
>
> Yes, in theory.  Well, it's like the British Empire.
> More countries.  More trade.  More wealth.  Importing
> low lowers the cost of living.  Exporting high raises
> the standard of living.

It is important to be aware that the EU is not just about free trade. It 
has two sides to it: 1) economic, 2) political. Wikipedia calls it "a 
politico-economic union".

The economic side is generally accepted as a good thing. That is the 
side that leads to free trade (no import tariffs) and has meant that 
businesses across the EU zone have been able to trade freely in goods 
and employ workers from other EU countries. I.e. there is free movement 
of goods and people.

I mentioned in my earlier reply that when many UK citizens say they want 
to remain in the EU they may not really understand it. That's because 
they think of it in terms of trade. I.e. they see the economic side of 
the EU and the improved wealth that has resulted therefrom. What many 
don't seem to be aware of is its political side.

The political aspect of the EU is quite another matter. Its ruling 
commission is already very powerful and wants further powers. It would 
like there to be a fully federal solution, it already has primacy over 
member countries, and when there is a crisis it seeks to take more 
power. There is already talk of the EU even having its own army. What is 
more, EU treaties enshrine the policy of "ever closer union". 
Centralisation of power is in their very way of thinking.

   http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7230

I would like the UK to trade with the EU but not be in an undemocratic 
political union with it. I think most people would agree if they 
understood what the EU really is.

>>> Does Germany have too much power in the E.U.?
>>
>> Yes. Germany contributes most to EU coffers
>>
>>     http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8036097.stm#start
>>
>> but Germany also has disproportionate power.
>>
>
> Is the UK able to  *buy*  parity?  I.e., increase payments to
> match Germany's.

No, it doesn't work like that. Those figures are just for the EU's 
budget - derived by a funding formula, AIUI, which sees some countries 
as net contributors and others - usually the poorer ones - as net 
beneficiaries. Naturally, the poorer ones want to stay in. And other 
poorer countries want to join.

...

>> Some British politicians say that the UK must be in the EU 'at
>> the top table' in order to influence EU policy.
>
> Well, I would think that most of the countries which currently
> contribute the majority of general funds to the EU other than
> Germany (i.e, Italy, France, UK, Spain) would want power parity
> with Germany.  Together, perhaps under threat of EU withdrawal,
> they could definitely force Germany to agree.  If the UK is the
> only country that wants to threaten this, then perhaps the other
> countries could be convinced of supporting the UK, either in
> solidarity or as a favor.  Otherwise, Germany, as the apparent
> dominant economic machine in the EU, will come to dominant the
> EU bureaucracy totally.

I think it's fair to say that all EU countries benefit from their 
membership - at least due to trade. Some countries additionally want 
political union. That is the way some Europeans think. There is perhaps 
a European mindset that pushes them that way. They may be aware of 
European discord and wars of the past and want there to be a unified 
Europe where all men are brothers etc. Or they just think of working 
together. Many such see no problem with yielding their national 
sovereignty to a common superstate.

For whatever reason the British mindset is different. They don't think 
like that. ISTM that for the Brits sovereignty, independence, self 
determination and the rule of law are more in focus. Of course, those 
are general views. Individuals differ. Yet I think there is a difference 
in attitude between the British and those in most of Europe. That makes 
most Europeans comfortable with the idea of political union while Brits 
want free trade, partnership, cooperation and friendship.

...

>> * Primarily, it is undemocratic.
>
> That's a problem.  It goes hand in hand with the rule of law
> and capitalism.  Those don't work well without each other.

Indeed. Interestingly, UK politicians on both sides have spoken against 
the EU as undemocratic. Tony Benn was a politician who was very left 
wing. Margaret Thatcher was very right wing. Both could see the EU 
project for what it was.

 
http://think-left.org/2015/07/06/tony-benn-the-case-against-the-eu-is-its-lack-of-democracy/
   http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11598879

...

>> UK law is *subject* to EU law and yet UK voters have no say in
>> those laws and cannot choose the main lawmakers. The EU leaders
>> who make these laws are not challenged by any UK body either in
>> interviews or before committees.
>
> That doesn't seem to be representative, perhaps, more totalitarian.

Right.

>> This has very real effects. For example, the German chancellor
>> invited an unlimited number of migrants in to Germany - all who
>> could get there - and soon after that said that Germany should not
>> cope alone and that other countries should shoulder the load; the
>> migrants should be shared out and/or paid for by all EU countries.
>
> Is there really any difference between the ability to charge without
> recourse and the ability to tax?  We experienced this with ObamaCare
> individual mandate.  Did the UK grant the EU the power to tax it on
> for any issue?  Handling undesired immigrants is definitely a tax.

The EU setup is very complex and I don't understand it all. (I am not 
sure that anyone does!) But the EU is financed by a funding formula that 
can require states to make retrospective payments. For example, the EU 
demanded another £1.7 billion because the UK economy had done well.

   http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29751124

Interestingly the UK said loudly that it was unacceptable and that the 
government would not pay it. It was later paid quietly!

   http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3237073

I think they tried to stop it but the EU rules did not allow them to do so.

As for migrants, the UK is not one of the countries that has to take 
those that Germany invited - at least not until they get EU passports. 
Then they will have free access.

...

>> * The UK govt is in an eyewatering amount of debt - £1.5 trillion,
>> approximately 5% of the tax take is spent just servicing the debt and
>> that may well go up if and when the costs of borrowing increase.
>
> I'm always surprised by how liberal EU countries are and how supportive
> they are of social programs too.  IMO, this is the natural economic
> outcome: debt.

The UK's welfare system has long been generous but it became absurdly 
liberal in the fat times prior to the 2008 crash. Even some with high 
incomes received state aid. The current government is gradually changing 
things but each such alteration disadvantages someone so they are facing 
opposition and it seems that they are not doing a good job of explaining 
and persuading.

Unfortunately, AIUI, under EU law the liberal welfare system that is 
applied to UK nationals must also be applied to any EU citizen who moves 
to the UK. It doesn't matter which country he or she came from.

Note that EU citizens are not supported by the government of their own 
country (where they may previously have contributes by the paying of 
taxes) but by the government of the country where they reside. So a 
person who moves, say, from Romania to France, will enjoy the same 
benefits as any other French citizen.

 > It's only a matter of time before more socialist or
> liberal elements of US society push for food for all, minimum income
> for all, homes for all, etc.  How do you pay for all that?  I.e., it's
> simply not always possible to implement equitable social justice given
> the available funds.  Someone must suffer.  Our social security program
> is a constantly broke Ponzi scheme.  Our welfare programs are constantly
> broke, because we simple have too many people here to employ post
> industrialization.  Our healthcare (ObamaCare) is another even worse
> Ponzi scheme likely to implode in a massive global financial meltdown.
> Whomever authored it flunked economics and didn't fix the causes of
> our costly healthcare.  The only thing saving these flawed schemes
> from impending doom has been the repeated recovery of the US economy,
> i.e., our workers start making a lot more money.

Don't get me wrong. I am all for support for those who need it, 
especially if it is for a short period so that they can get themselves 
on their feet again. And I am in favour of governments doing whatever is 
necessary to make it possible for people to earn their own living. But 
each person who is able to earn a living should do so and should not 
expect state handouts they don't need. People should WANT to work and 
support themselves and their families.

>> * Economic conditions vary a lot across the EU creating a flow of
>> people from poorer to richer countries. That is not good for either
>> the rich or the poor countries.
>
> Why don't the rich countries employ the people in poor countries?
> I.e., no need for them to seek better life elsewhere if paid well.
> George Soros seems to be fond of social engineering in the EU,
> albeit his misguided policies are probably bad for the EU and
> people in those countries long-term, but better than the alternative
> of preserving the failed policies of communism.

Companies make their own commercial decisions as to where they build 
premises, invest and employ people.

There is a very informative map of average wage discrepancy at

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage#Map

The discrepancies tend to create a migration from east to west.

>> * Europe has porous borders.
>
> Our states do too.

I meant Europe as a whole. People can get into Europe - often by sea. If 
they can get in as refugees or, recently, as any kind of migrant and 
receive an EU passport then they can travel to any EU country.

...

>> Migrants can get in to the EU (perhaps
>> risking their lives and those of their children).
>
> Ditto for Mexico here.

Do Mexicans come in to the US by land or sea or a mixture of both? Do 
they take much of a risk in getting there?

>> * EU policies have already brought in and are continuing to bring in
>> an unknown number of terrorists as well as large groups who are not
>> terrorists but who do not share the West's traditional respect for
>> women. There have already been assaults, rapes, intimidation and
>> killings.
>
> Cultural problems resulting from immigration die down over time.

Maybe so. But how many of the existing citizens suffer in the meantime? 
Try telling the women who have been raped in Sweden or the people who 
were shot in Paris. Try telling their loved ones that it will all sort 
itself out in time and see how comforted they will feel.

Too, if people refuse to integrate then serious problems can persist.

Some migrants are genuinely fleeing war or persecution but others just 
want a better life. The EU has opened its doors to them all.

Talking about EU madness.... To reduce the number of African migrants 
settling in the EU the EU leaders recently proposed that they would send 
Africans back to their home countries but also *pay* those countries to 
take them back. Imagine having to pay a country to take its own people back!

Of course, those were economic migrants, not refugees.

I think of a refugee as someone who is just glad to get to a place of 
safety. Imagine a genuine refugee's relief at getting across the border 
into a safe land where they won't be persecuted.

But many recent migrants into the EU don't want to stop in the first 
safe country. They have specific goals in mind because they are moving 
for economic reasons and want to get to certain countries.

Many migrants into the EU are not families but large groups of single 
men. They bring their own ways and standards, many of which are 
intolerant of western culture and standards. Some expect the host 
country to change its ways to match theirs.

> Read up on US history.  Each time a new group of immigrants enters
> the US, there are fights and conflicts for decades.  Indoctrination
> in the laws and strong law enforcement by the police helps to reduce.

Yes, education in the laws and ways of the new country is vital. I don't 
know if there's much of that going on, though.

> A generation or two later, most immigrants are naturalized and become
> integrated into American society.  Few problems.  The exception are
> Jews and blacks, both of whom choose not to integrate.  Blacks use
> slavery as an excuse (150 years old ...) to continue to attack the
> US system.  All other immigrants chose to come here.  They didn't.
> Unfortunately, our society doesn't need blacks for workers anymore,
> slave or free.  Their jobs were exported or industrialized or
> mechanized or "roboticized".  I suspect societal issues with blacks
> in America will only become worse.

Individuals of whatever colour, creed or culture can and do integrate 
but, as you suggest, when groups avoid integrating and form their own 
communities then issues arise. Many current EU immigrants are Arabic or 
African Muslims and have their own allegiances and ways such as their 
beliefs in how women should dress and how women should be treated. Some 
have tried to set up Muslim areas where Sharia law applies and where 
non-Muslims are not welcome.

So I am not as sanguine as you about a transition from discord to 
harmony. I don't see evidence in Europe of a willingness to integrate, 
or of a program to help people integrate, or signs that there will be 
peaceful coexistence in the future.

>> Don't get me wrong. I can see that there are good things about EU
>> membership, too. However, as the EU is a customs union those benefits
>> are mainly to large companies with international trading - what I
>> believe economists call vested interests.
>
> I think that once the balance-of-power and union-versus-state rights
> are worked out, then the EU would be more beneficial to Europe.  I'm
> rather surprised they didn't seem to learn anything from the US model
> on those issues.  The US model was the result of failures of the
> British government, the Catholic Church's power in Europe, and perhaps
> even other government models, e.g., French.  Our government formation
> documents are a great gift freely given to the world that no country
> seems to want to implement ...

I don't share your optimism. The US' founding fathers were apparently 
noble men who, as you say, saw the abuses of power by the British or 
other original countries and wanted to establish something more 
equitable. By contrast, the EU founders and leaders are more focussed on 
governmental systems.

As an example, the US constitution is a document of fundamental rights 
of the people relative to the government. The EU constitution is more 
about how the EU structures are to work than about protections for those 
governed. From a quick bit of searching it seems that the US 
constitution has about 4,500 words. By contrast, the number of words in 
the EU constitution is about 70,000. It is a document about structures, 
not about people.

...

> With our current cast of Supreme Court justices acting like
> a bunch of Disney characters, it could happen too.

Any Disney characters in particular?

James

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Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 11:42 +0100
  Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI Bernhard Schornak <schornak@web.de> - 2015-10-02 20:43 +0200
    Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-10-04 15:23 +0100
      Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI Bernhard Schornak <schornak@web.de> - 2015-10-05 17:38 +0200
  Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-10-02 17:17 -0400
    Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-10-04 16:36 +0100
      Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-10-04 21:27 -0400
        Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-10-05 15:01 +0100
          Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-10-05 21:57 -0400
            Re: halting Adobe Flash videos with Mozilla Firefox, was [Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI] "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-10-26 04:35 -0400
            Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-27 12:40 +0000
              Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-12-27 15:51 -0500
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-01-03 12:08 +0000
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-01-03 14:55 -0500
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-01-13 17:58 +0000
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-01-15 11:32 +0000
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-01-16 03:29 -0500
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-01-16 13:44 +0000
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-01-16 12:55 -0500
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-01-16 19:55 +0000
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-01-18 07:39 -0500
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-01-18 22:45 +0000
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-01-19 22:28 -0500
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-01-27 13:27 +0000
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-01-27 17:20 -0500
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-01-28 11:03 +0000
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-01-22 17:43 +0000
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-01-23 13:17 -0500
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-01-27 13:42 +0000
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 09:14 +0100
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-02-14 09:56 +0000
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-02-14 09:11 -0500
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-02-14 15:58 +0000
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-02-15 05:55 -0500
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-02-15 15:57 +0000
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-02-16 05:33 -0500
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-02-24 06:16 +0000
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-02-24 18:03 -0500
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 06:25 +0000
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI "Alexei A. Frounze" <alexfrunews@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 00:21 -0800
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 08:45 +0000
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-02-28 20:40 -0500
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 14:49 +0000
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-03-02 21:50 -0500
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-03-05 06:09 +0000
                OT politics was Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-03-05 12:40 +0000
                Re: OT politics was Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-03-05 20:11 -0500
                Re: OT politics, was [Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI] Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-03-05 20:11 -0500
                Re: OT politics, was [Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI] James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-03-17 16:35 +0000
                Re: OT politics, was [Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI] Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-03-17 21:02 -0400
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-02-24 20:09 -0500
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-02-25 14:55 +0000
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI "Alexei A. Frounze" <alexfrunews@gmail.com> - 2016-02-16 03:56 -0800
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-02-17 04:21 -0500
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI "Alexei A. Frounze" <alexfrunews@gmail.com> - 2016-02-24 02:12 -0800
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-02-24 18:03 -0500
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI "Alexei A. Frounze" <alexfrunews@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 02:53 -0800
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-02-28 20:15 -0500
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI "Alexei A. Frounze" <alexfrunews@gmail.com> - 2016-03-27 20:37 -0700
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-03-28 18:23 -0400
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI "Alexei A. Frounze" <alexfrunews@gmail.com> - 2016-03-27 21:10 -0700
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-01-15 14:34 +0000
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-01-15 15:10 +0000
        Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-10-05 15:39 +0100
  Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI "wolfgang kern" <nowhere@never.at> - 2015-10-03 12:48 +0200
    Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-10-04 17:00 +0100
      Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI "wolfgang kern" <nowhere@never.at> - 2015-10-04 23:32 +0200
        Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-10-05 14:05 +0100
          Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-10-05 15:17 +0100
            Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI "wolfgang kern" <nowhere@never.at> - 2015-10-06 10:35 +0200
              Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-10-06 16:28 +0100
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI "wolfgang kern" <nowhere@never.at> - 2015-10-06 19:14 +0200
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-10-06 20:02 +0100
          Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI "wolfgang kern" <nowhere@never.at> - 2015-10-06 10:46 +0200
            Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-10-07 01:16 -0400
            Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-27 12:50 +0000
              Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI "wolfgang kern" <nowhere@never.at> - 2015-12-27 23:22 +0100

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