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E Field uses and E Field Motors

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  E Field uses and E Field Motors Serigo <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-09-16 23:20 -0500
    Re: E Field uses and E Field Motors Michael J. Strickland <michael06582@comcast.net> - 2016-09-17 21:46 -0400
      Re: E Field uses and E Field Motors Serigo <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-09-17 22:34 -0500
      Re: E Field uses and E Field Motors "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2016-09-18 01:55 -0700
        Re: E Field uses and E Field Motors Serigo <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-09-18 11:17 -0500
          Re: E Field uses and E Field Motors Serigo <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-09-18 11:31 -0500
          Re: E Field uses and E Field Motors jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-09-18 18:05 +0000
            Re: E Field uses and E Field Motors "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2016-09-18 11:47 -0700
              Re: E Field uses and E Field Motors jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-09-18 19:37 +0000
                Re: E Field uses and E Field Motors Serigo <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-09-18 14:59 -0500
                  Re: E Field uses and E Field Motors jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-09-18 20:36 +0000
                    Re: E Field uses and E Field Motors Serigo <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-09-18 16:01 -0500
                      Re: E Field uses and E Field Motors jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-09-18 23:33 +0000
                        Re: E Field uses and E Field Motors noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2016-09-19 12:20 -0700

#597276 — E Field uses and E Field Motors

The electrostatic potential gradient between the Earth and the 
Ionosphere is about 100Vm-1 near the surface in summer, rising to 
300Vm-1 in winter. It is well known that electrostatic motors can be 
driven by the atmospheric electric field indefinitely from an 
appropriate antenna and earth connection.

To convert this "static" potential field into useable electricity, an 
antenna or collector is raised to a suitable altitude. The static charge 
collected is then used to charge a condenser bank or drive an 
electrostatic parametric generator that converts the static charge into 
alternating current.

Optimum antenna or collector design is essential.  The antenna can be 
considered to operate on the same principle as the Van de Graaf 
generator.  Instead of the charge being transported continuously from a 
generator by a belt to the terminal, charge is transported from the 
earth to the terminal by a physical connection.

Advantages of Atmospheric Electricity

     Simple and robust technology
     Low Cost technology - much cheaper than photovoltaics or wind turbines
     Available day and night in all weather conditions - in fact, more 
power is produced at night than during the day
     Available at any point on the Earth's surface


Electrostatic Motors Are Powered By Electric Field of the Earth
---------------------
by C. L. Stong
October, 1974
---------------------
ALTHOUGH no one can make a perpetual motion machine, anyone can tap the 
earth's electric field to run a homemade motor perpetually. The field 
exists in the atmosphere between the earth's surface and the ionosphere 
as an electric potential of about 360,000 volts. Estimates of the stored 
energy range from a million kilowatts to a billion kilowatts.
Energy in this form cannot be drawn on directly for driving ordinary 
electric motors. Such motors develop mechanical force through the 
interaction of magnetic fields that are generated
with high electric current at low voltage, as Michael Faraday 
demonstrated in 1821. The earth's field provides relatively low direct 
current at high voltage, which is ideal for operating electrostatic 
motors similar in principle to the machine invented by Benjamin Franklin 
in 1748.

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#597373

On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 23:20:18 -0500, Serigo <invalid@invalid.com>
wrote:

>The electrostatic potential gradient between the Earth and the 
>Ionosphere is about 100Vm-1 near the surface in summer, rising to 
>300Vm-1 in winter. It is well known that electrostatic motors can be 
>driven by the atmospheric electric field indefinitely from an 
>appropriate antenna and earth connection.
>
>To convert this "static" potential field into useable electricity, an 
>antenna or collector is raised to a suitable altitude. The static charge 
>collected is then used to charge a condenser bank or drive an 
>electrostatic parametric generator that converts the static charge into 
>alternating current.

How is it proposed to "collect the static charge"? The imbalance of
charged ions of the ionosphere compared to the ground creates this
electric field (or potential difference). What will hold (and shape)
the current flow for an electric motor? Maybe we could harness the
circumferential magnetic flux of a lightning bolt (or an antenna to
ground current carrying wire) as the stator but we still need a rotor
(current carrying wire/conduit) for our "motor."

...
---------------------------------------------------
Michael J. Strickland			Reston, VA
---------------------------------------------------

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#597377

On 9/17/2016 8:46 PM, Michael J. Strickland wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 23:20:18 -0500, Serigo <invalid@invalid.com>
> wrote:
>
>> The electrostatic potential gradient between the Earth and the
>> Ionosphere is about 100Vm-1 near the surface in summer, rising to
>> 300Vm-1 in winter. It is well known that electrostatic motors can be
>> driven by the atmospheric electric field indefinitely from an
>> appropriate antenna and earth connection.
>>
>> To convert this "static" potential field into useable electricity, an
>> antenna or collector is raised to a suitable altitude. The static charge
>> collected is then used to charge a condenser bank or drive an
>> electrostatic parametric generator that converts the static charge into
>> alternating current.

> How is it proposed to "collect the static charge"? The imbalance of
> charged ions of the ionosphere compared to the ground creates this
> electric field (or potential difference). What will hold (and shape)
> the current flow for an electric motor? Maybe we could harness the
> circumferential magnetic flux of a lightning bolt (or an antenna to
> ground current carrying wire) as the stator but we still need a rotor
> (current carrying wire/conduit) for our "motor."
>
> ...
> ---------------------------------------------------
> Michael J. Strickland			Reston, VA
> ---------------------------------------------------
>

there are some static motors around, demos only, very little power, only 
enough to move the parts. There has been a lot of research in static 
back in the 20's and 30's most forgotton now, In the 1740s and 1750s, 
the first electrostatic motors were developed by Andrew Gordon and by 
Benjamin Franklin.

https://3dprint.com/66115/3d-printed-electrostatic-motor/

but the amount of current from atmospheric static is very low, perhaps 
10^12 A per m^2

there are a lot of patents in this area

https://www.amazon.com/Electrostatic-Motors-History-Principles-Operation/dp/1935023470/ref=pd_sim_b_1

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#597401

On Saturday, September 17, 2016 at 6:47:02 PM UTC-7, Michael Strickland wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 23:20:18 -0500, Serigo <invalid@invalid.com>
> wrote:
> 
> >The electrostatic potential gradient between the Earth and the 
> >Ionosphere is about 100Vm-1 near the surface in summer, rising to 
> >300Vm-1 in winter. It is well known that electrostatic motors can be 
> >driven by the atmospheric electric field indefinitely from an 
> >appropriate antenna and earth connection.
> >
> >To convert this "static" potential field into useable electricity, an 
> >antenna or collector is raised to a suitable altitude. The static charge 
> >collected is then used to charge a condenser bank or drive an 
> >electrostatic parametric generator that converts the static charge into 
> >alternating current.
> 
> How is it proposed to "collect the static charge"? The imbalance of
> charged ions of the ionosphere compared to the ground creates this
> electric field (or potential difference).

  Traditionally, you place a conductor at some convenient altitude. Of course, it has to be extremely well insulated from Earth which plays the literal part of "ground" in a Direct Current "circuit".

> What will hold (and shape) the current flow for an electric motor?

  Another conductor attached to the elevated conductor of course, say copper wire.

> Maybe we could harness the circumferential magnetic flux of a lightning bolt

  Not worthwhile, except possibly at Catatumbo:

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/world_of_wonders/2011/02/an_everlasting_lightning_storm.html

  Anywhere else on Earth the incidence of strikes is just too infrequent.

> (or an antenna

  Yup.

> to ground current carrying wire) as the stator but we still need a rotor
> (current carrying wire/conduit) for our "motor."

  Look up "electrostatic machine".

  The deal-breaker is the miniscule power available. Kilovolts, but the total amount of current passing from the ionosphere to the surface is less than two thousand amps. The current that through a square meter parallel to Earth's surface is about ten *pico*amps.

http://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/II_09.html

  That means you need a large antenna to get even detectable current, let alone enough to do useful work.

  It's doable, but not feasible. How many acres of land can you afford to cover with a copper mesh roof a thousand feet high?


  Mark L. Fergerson

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#597411

On 9/18/2016 3:55 AM, nuny@bid.nes wrote:
> On Saturday, September 17, 2016 at 6:47:02 PM UTC-7, Michael
> Strickland wrote:
>> On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 23:20:18 -0500, Serigo <invalid@invalid.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The electrostatic potential gradient between the Earth and the
>>> Ionosphere is about 100Vm-1 near the surface in summer, rising to
>>>  300Vm-1 in winter. It is well known that electrostatic motors
>>> can be driven by the atmospheric electric field indefinitely from
>>> an appropriate antenna and earth connection.

>
> The deal-breaker is the miniscule power available. Kilovolts, but the
> total amount of current passing from the ionosphere to the surface is
> less than two thousand amps. The current that through a square meter
> parallel to Earth's surface is about ten *pico*amps.
>
> http://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/II_09.html
>
> That means you need a large antenna to get even detectable current,
> let alone enough to do useful work.
>
> It's doable, but not feasible. How many acres of land can you afford
> to cover with a copper mesh roof a thousand feet high?
>
>


copper would corrode, but you could use copper coated steel wire like 
the old telegraph lines. that was tough stuff, and went a span of 200' (?)

Actually the mesh could be sparce, put up towers 100' tall 100' apart 
and connect the tops with that telegraph wire.  Im thinking of the old 
rule of tower protects at a 45 degree angle the stuff below it from 
lightning strikes.

But you would have to watch the high voltage insulation of the wires 
from the towers, at 100 v/foot, 100 feet => 10,000 volts so tripple 
that, as when a cloud comes over the E Field goes up a lot.

still not much power, but detectable, as a cloud detector yes, pre 
lightning detector yes, etc. google Field Meters, interesting area.



> Mark L. Fergerson
>

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#597412

On 9/18/2016 11:17 AM, Serigo wrote:
> On 9/18/2016 3:55 AM, nuny@bid.nes wrote:
>> On Saturday, September 17, 2016 at 6:47:02 PM UTC-7, Michael
>> Strickland wrote:
>>> On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 23:20:18 -0500, Serigo <invalid@invalid.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The electrostatic potential gradient between the Earth and the
>>>> Ionosphere is about 100Vm-1 near the surface in summer, rising to
>>>>  300Vm-1 in winter. It is well known that electrostatic motors
>>>> can be driven by the atmospheric electric field indefinitely from
>>>> an appropriate antenna and earth connection.

>>
>> The deal-breaker is the miniscule power available. Kilovolts, but the
>> total amount of current passing from the ionosphere to the surface is
>> less than two thousand amps. The current that through a square meter
>> parallel to Earth's surface is about ten *pico*amps.
>>
>> http://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/II_09.html
>>
>> That means you need a large antenna to get even detectable current,
>> let alone enough to do useful work.

>> It's doable, but not feasible. How many acres of land can you afford
>> to cover with a copper mesh roof a thousand feet high?
>>
>>
>

> copper would corrode, but you could use copper coated steel wire like
> the old telegraph lines. that was tough stuff, and went a span of 200' (?)
>
> Actually the mesh could be sparce, put up towers 100' tall 100' apart
> and connect the tops with that telegraph wire.  Im thinking of the old
> rule of tower protects at a 45 degree angle the stuff below it from
> lightning strikes.

> But you would have to watch the high voltage insulation of the wires
> from the towers, at 100 v/foot, 100 feet => 10,000 volts so tripple
> that, as when a cloud comes over the E Field goes up a lot.
>
> still not much power, but detectable, as a cloud detector yes, pre
> lightning detector yes, etc. google Field Meters, interesting area.
>
>
>
>> Mark L. Fergerson
>>
>

it is difficult to measure the E field, but here is a good link, has 
SA's build your own (paywall -ugh.)

called Electric Field Mill


http://a-tech.net/ElectricFieldMill/index.html

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#597418

Serigo <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
> On 9/18/2016 3:55 AM, nuny@bid.nes wrote:
>> On Saturday, September 17, 2016 at 6:47:02 PM UTC-7, Michael
>> Strickland wrote:
>>> On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 23:20:18 -0500, Serigo <invalid@invalid.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The electrostatic potential gradient between the Earth and the
>>>> Ionosphere is about 100Vm-1 near the surface in summer, rising to
>>>>  300Vm-1 in winter. It is well known that electrostatic motors
>>>> can be driven by the atmospheric electric field indefinitely from
>>>> an appropriate antenna and earth connection.
> 
>>
>> The deal-breaker is the miniscule power available. Kilovolts, but the
>> total amount of current passing from the ionosphere to the surface is
>> less than two thousand amps. The current that through a square meter
>> parallel to Earth's surface is about ten *pico*amps.
>>
>> http://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/II_09.html
>>
>> That means you need a large antenna to get even detectable current,
>> let alone enough to do useful work.
>>
>> It's doable, but not feasible. How many acres of land can you afford
>> to cover with a copper mesh roof a thousand feet high?
>>
>>
> 
> 
> copper would corrode, but you could use copper coated steel wire like 
> the old telegraph lines. that was tough stuff, and went a span of 200' (?)
> 
> Actually the mesh could be sparce, put up towers 100' tall 100' apart 
> and connect the tops with that telegraph wire.  Im thinking of the old 
> rule of tower protects at a 45 degree angle the stuff below it from 
> lightning strikes.
> 
> But you would have to watch the high voltage insulation of the wires 
> from the towers, at 100 v/foot, 100 feet => 10,000 volts so tripple 
> that, as when a cloud comes over the E Field goes up a lot.

There are lots of towers much higher than that and they do not see
tens of thousands of volts impressed on them.


-- 
Jim Pennino

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#597419

On Sunday, September 18, 2016 at 11:16:05 AM UTC-7, ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
> Serigo <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
> > On 9/18/2016 3:55 AM, nuny@bid.nes wrote:
> >> On Saturday, September 17, 2016 at 6:47:02 PM UTC-7, Michael
> >> Strickland wrote:
> >>> On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 23:20:18 -0500, Serigo <invalid@invalid.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> The electrostatic potential gradient between the Earth and the
> >>>> Ionosphere is about 100Vm-1 near the surface in summer, rising to
> >>>>  300Vm-1 in winter. It is well known that electrostatic motors
> >>>> can be driven by the atmospheric electric field indefinitely from
> >>>> an appropriate antenna and earth connection.
> >>
> >> The deal-breaker is the miniscule power available. Kilovolts, but the
> >> total amount of current passing from the ionosphere to the surface is
> >> less than two thousand amps. The current that through a square meter
> >> parallel to Earth's surface is about ten *pico*amps.
> >>
> >> http://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/II_09.html
> >>
> >> That means you need a large antenna to get even detectable current,
> >> let alone enough to do useful work.
> >>
> >> It's doable, but not feasible. How many acres of land can you afford
> >> to cover with a copper mesh roof a thousand feet high?
> > 
> > copper would corrode, but you could use copper coated steel wire like 
> > the old telegraph lines. that was tough stuff, and went a span of 200' (?)

  So, silver-plate it. ;>)

> > Actually the mesh could be sparce, put up towers 100' tall 100' apart 
> > and connect the tops with that telegraph wire.  Im thinking of the old 
> > rule of tower protects at a 45 degree angle the stuff below it from 
> > lightning strikes.

  Yup, more or less.

> > But you would have to watch the high voltage insulation of the wires 
> > from the towers, at 100 v/foot, 100 feet => 10,000 volts so tripple 
> > that, as when a cloud comes over the E Field goes up a lot.

  Also yup. High-voltage low-current stuff is very tricky to work with- the charge keeps leaking off through the air.

> There are lots of towers much higher than that and they do not see
> tens of thousands of volts impressed on them.

  They tend to be conductive, shorting the field. Tall buildings rapidly get coated with conducting films of bio-crud. It doesn't have to be *very* conductive to leak nanoamps.


  Mark L. Fergerson

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#597424

nuny@bid.nes <Alien8752@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, September 18, 2016 at 11:16:05 AM UTC-7, ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>> Serigo <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
>> > On 9/18/2016 3:55 AM, nuny@bid.nes wrote:
>> >> On Saturday, September 17, 2016 at 6:47:02 PM UTC-7, Michael
>> >> Strickland wrote:
>> >>> On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 23:20:18 -0500, Serigo <invalid@invalid.com>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> The electrostatic potential gradient between the Earth and the
>> >>>> Ionosphere is about 100Vm-1 near the surface in summer, rising to
>> >>>>  300Vm-1 in winter. It is well known that electrostatic motors
>> >>>> can be driven by the atmospheric electric field indefinitely from
>> >>>> an appropriate antenna and earth connection.
>> >>
>> >> The deal-breaker is the miniscule power available. Kilovolts, but the
>> >> total amount of current passing from the ionosphere to the surface is
>> >> less than two thousand amps. The current that through a square meter
>> >> parallel to Earth's surface is about ten *pico*amps.
>> >>
>> >> http://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/II_09.html
>> >>
>> >> That means you need a large antenna to get even detectable current,
>> >> let alone enough to do useful work.
>> >>
>> >> It's doable, but not feasible. How many acres of land can you afford
>> >> to cover with a copper mesh roof a thousand feet high?
>> > 
>> > copper would corrode, but you could use copper coated steel wire like 
>> > the old telegraph lines. that was tough stuff, and went a span of 200' (?)
> 
>   So, silver-plate it. ;>)
> 
>> > Actually the mesh could be sparce, put up towers 100' tall 100' apart 
>> > and connect the tops with that telegraph wire.  Im thinking of the old 
>> > rule of tower protects at a 45 degree angle the stuff below it from 
>> > lightning strikes.
> 
>   Yup, more or less.
> 
>> > But you would have to watch the high voltage insulation of the wires 
>> > from the towers, at 100 v/foot, 100 feet => 10,000 volts so tripple 
>> > that, as when a cloud comes over the E Field goes up a lot.
> 
>   Also yup. High-voltage low-current stuff is very tricky to work with- the charge keeps leaking off through the air.
> 
>> There are lots of towers much higher than that and they do not see
>> tens of thousands of volts impressed on them.
> 
>   They tend to be conductive, shorting the field. Tall buildings rapidly get coated with conducting films of bio-crud. It doesn't have to be *very* conductive to leak nanoamps.

Tower as in antenna tower, e.g. KFI Los Angeles, 750 feet.



-- 
Jim Pennino

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#597426

On 9/18/2016 2:37 PM, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
> nuny@bid.nes <Alien8752@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sunday, September 18, 2016 at 11:16:05 AM UTC-7,
>> ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>> Serigo <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>> On 9/18/2016 3:55 AM, nuny@bid.nes wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, September 17, 2016 at 6:47:02 PM UTC-7, Michael
>>>>> Strickland wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 23:20:18 -0500, Serigo
>>>>>> <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The electrostatic potential gradient between the Earth
>>>>>>> and the Ionosphere is about 100Vm-1 near the surface in
>>>>>>> summer, rising to 300Vm-1 in winter. It is well known
>>>>>>> that electrostatic motors can be driven by the
>>>>>>> atmospheric electric field indefinitely from an
>>>>>>> appropriate antenna and earth connection.
>>>>>
>>>>> The deal-breaker is the miniscule power available. Kilovolts,
>>>>> but the total amount of current passing from the ionosphere
>>>>> to the surface is less than two thousand amps. The current
>>>>> that through a square meter parallel to Earth's surface is
>>>>> about ten *pico*amps.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/II_09.html
>>>>>
>>>>> That means you need a large antenna to get even detectable
>>>>> current, let alone enough to do useful work.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's doable, but not feasible. How many acres of land can you
>>>>> afford to cover with a copper mesh roof a thousand feet
>>>>> high?
>>>>
>>>> copper would corrode, but you could use copper coated steel
>>>> wire like the old telegraph lines. that was tough stuff, and
>>>> went a span of 200' (?)
>>
>> So, silver-plate it. ;>)

>>>> Actually the mesh could be sparce, put up towers 100' tall 100'
>>>> apart and connect the tops with that telegraph wire.  Im
>>>> thinking of the old rule of tower protects at a 45 degree angle
>>>> the stuff below it from lightning strikes.
>>
>> Yup, more or less.
>>
>>>> But you would have to watch the high voltage insulation of the
>>>> wires from the towers, at 100 v/foot, 100 feet => 10,000 volts
>>>> so tripple that, as when a cloud comes over the E Field goes up
>>>> a lot.
>>
>> Also yup. High-voltage low-current stuff is very tricky to work
>> with- the charge keeps leaking off through the air.

>>> There are lots of towers much higher than that and they do not
>>> see tens of thousands of volts impressed on them.
>>
>> They tend to be conductive, shorting the field. Tall buildings
>> rapidly get coated with conducting films of bio-crud. It doesn't
>> have to be *very* conductive to leak nanoamps.
>
> Tower as in antenna tower, e.g. KFI Los Angeles, 750 feet.

>
>

the towers distort the E Field as they provide a lower resistance path
to ground, how much ? the info is out there...

FYI - most towers are grounded, except some AM station towers, many AM
stations actually use phased arrays of towers, the tower sits on large
insulators, and the pattern is steared to different setting at night
(with power lowered) due to AM's much greater range at night due to
probagation, lower ionosphere I think, FCC rules and regs.

There is/was an old AM station in north dallas that had 6 towers, and a
large phasor bank to tune the towers, I think the feed line attached to
the tower about 1/4 the way up.  excellent 1930's design,  the station
guys wanted us to take it all for free so they could put in modern
stuff.  (we said no, as it would have filled someones garage for long time)

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#597434

Serigo <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
> On 9/18/2016 2:37 PM, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>> nuny@bid.nes <Alien8752@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sunday, September 18, 2016 at 11:16:05 AM UTC-7,
>>> ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>> Serigo <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 9/18/2016 3:55 AM, nuny@bid.nes wrote:
>>>>>> On Saturday, September 17, 2016 at 6:47:02 PM UTC-7, Michael
>>>>>> Strickland wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 23:20:18 -0500, Serigo
>>>>>>> <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The electrostatic potential gradient between the Earth
>>>>>>>> and the Ionosphere is about 100Vm-1 near the surface in
>>>>>>>> summer, rising to 300Vm-1 in winter. It is well known
>>>>>>>> that electrostatic motors can be driven by the
>>>>>>>> atmospheric electric field indefinitely from an
>>>>>>>> appropriate antenna and earth connection.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The deal-breaker is the miniscule power available. Kilovolts,
>>>>>> but the total amount of current passing from the ionosphere
>>>>>> to the surface is less than two thousand amps. The current
>>>>>> that through a square meter parallel to Earth's surface is
>>>>>> about ten *pico*amps.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/II_09.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That means you need a large antenna to get even detectable
>>>>>> current, let alone enough to do useful work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's doable, but not feasible. How many acres of land can you
>>>>>> afford to cover with a copper mesh roof a thousand feet
>>>>>> high?
>>>>>
>>>>> copper would corrode, but you could use copper coated steel
>>>>> wire like the old telegraph lines. that was tough stuff, and
>>>>> went a span of 200' (?)
>>>
>>> So, silver-plate it. ;>)
> 
>>>>> Actually the mesh could be sparce, put up towers 100' tall 100'
>>>>> apart and connect the tops with that telegraph wire.  Im
>>>>> thinking of the old rule of tower protects at a 45 degree angle
>>>>> the stuff below it from lightning strikes.
>>>
>>> Yup, more or less.
>>>
>>>>> But you would have to watch the high voltage insulation of the
>>>>> wires from the towers, at 100 v/foot, 100 feet => 10,000 volts
>>>>> so tripple that, as when a cloud comes over the E Field goes up
>>>>> a lot.
>>>
>>> Also yup. High-voltage low-current stuff is very tricky to work
>>> with- the charge keeps leaking off through the air.
> 
>>>> There are lots of towers much higher than that and they do not
>>>> see tens of thousands of volts impressed on them.
>>>
>>> They tend to be conductive, shorting the field. Tall buildings
>>> rapidly get coated with conducting films of bio-crud. It doesn't
>>> have to be *very* conductive to leak nanoamps.
>>
>> Tower as in antenna tower, e.g. KFI Los Angeles, 750 feet.
> 
>>
>>
> 
> the towers distort the E Field as they provide a lower resistance path
> to ground, how much ? the info is out there...
> 
> FYI - most towers are grounded, except some AM station towers, many AM
> stations actually use phased arrays of towers, the tower sits on large
> insulators, and the pattern is steared to different setting at night
> (with power lowered) due to AM's much greater range at night due to
> probagation, lower ionosphere I think, FCC rules and regs.

KFI has a single, insulated tower 750 feet tall.

You claim 100 v/foot, which means the KFI tower should see 75,000 volts
at the base.

This voltage does not exist.

Therefor your base assumption is false.


-- 
Jim Pennino

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#597435

On 9/18/2016 3:36 PM, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
> Serigo <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
>> On 9/18/2016 2:37 PM, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>> nuny@bid.nes <Alien8752@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, September 18, 2016 at 11:16:05 AM UTC-7,
>>>> ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>> Serigo <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/18/2016 3:55 AM, nuny@bid.nes wrote:
>>>>>>> On Saturday, September 17, 2016 at 6:47:02 PM UTC-7, Michael
>>>>>>> Strickland wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 23:20:18 -0500, Serigo
>>>>>>>> <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The electrostatic potential gradient between the Earth
>>>>>>>>> and the Ionosphere is about 100Vm-1 near the surface in
>>>>>>>>> summer, rising to 300Vm-1 in winter. It is well known
>>>>>>>>> that electrostatic motors can be driven by the
>>>>>>>>> atmospheric electric field indefinitely from an
>>>>>>>>> appropriate antenna and earth connection.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The deal-breaker is the miniscule power available. Kilovolts,
>>>>>>> but the total amount of current passing from the ionosphere
>>>>>>> to the surface is less than two thousand amps. The current
>>>>>>> that through a square meter parallel to Earth's surface is
>>>>>>> about ten *pico*amps.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/II_09.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That means you need a large antenna to get even detectable
>>>>>>> current, let alone enough to do useful work.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's doable, but not feasible. How many acres of land can you
>>>>>>> afford to cover with a copper mesh roof a thousand feet
>>>>>>> high?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> copper would corrode, but you could use copper coated steel
>>>>>> wire like the old telegraph lines. that was tough stuff, and
>>>>>> went a span of 200' (?)
>>>>
>>>> So, silver-plate it. ;>)
>>
>>>>>> Actually the mesh could be sparce, put up towers 100' tall 100'
>>>>>> apart and connect the tops with that telegraph wire.  Im
>>>>>> thinking of the old rule of tower protects at a 45 degree angle
>>>>>> the stuff below it from lightning strikes.

>>>> Yup, more or less.
>>>>
>>>>>> But you would have to watch the high voltage insulation of the
>>>>>> wires from the towers, at 100 v/foot, 100 feet => 10,000 volts
>>>>>> so tripple that, as when a cloud comes over the E Field goes up
>>>>>> a lot.
>>>>
>>>> Also yup. High-voltage low-current stuff is very tricky to work
>>>> with- the charge keeps leaking off through the air.
>>
>>>>> There are lots of towers much higher than that and they do not
>>>>> see tens of thousands of volts impressed on them.
>>>>
>>>> They tend to be conductive, shorting the field. Tall buildings
>>>> rapidly get coated with conducting films of bio-crud. It doesn't
>>>> have to be *very* conductive to leak nanoamps.

>>> Tower as in antenna tower, e.g. KFI Los Angeles, 750 feet.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> the towers distort the E Field as they provide a lower resistance path
>> to ground, how much ? the info is out there...
>>
>> FYI - most towers are grounded, except some AM station towers, many AM
>> stations actually use phased arrays of towers, the tower sits on large
>> insulators, and the pattern is steared to different setting at night
>> (with power lowered) due to AM's much greater range at night due to
>> probagation, lower ionosphere I think, FCC rules and regs.

> KFI has a single, insulated tower 750 feet tall.
>
> You claim 100 v/foot, which means the KFI tower should see 75,000 volts
> at the base.
>
> This voltage does not exist.
>
> Therefor your base assumption is false.
>
>

not my assumption at all, measured fact;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_electricity

http://glossary.ametsoc.org/wiki/Atmospheric_electric_field

etc.

However, the current is extremly low, in picoamps, so not much power there

which implies that the E field is distorted around the tower,

remember that voltage potential is huge, results in air breakdown, and 
lightning, huge voltage over 5,000 feet and more.

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#597468

Serigo <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
> On 9/18/2016 3:36 PM, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>> Serigo <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
>>> On 9/18/2016 2:37 PM, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>> nuny@bid.nes <Alien8752@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sunday, September 18, 2016 at 11:16:05 AM UTC-7,
>>>>> ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>>> Serigo <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 9/18/2016 3:55 AM, nuny@bid.nes wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Saturday, September 17, 2016 at 6:47:02 PM UTC-7, Michael
>>>>>>>> Strickland wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 23:20:18 -0500, Serigo
>>>>>>>>> <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The electrostatic potential gradient between the Earth
>>>>>>>>>> and the Ionosphere is about 100Vm-1 near the surface in
>>>>>>>>>> summer, rising to 300Vm-1 in winter. It is well known
>>>>>>>>>> that electrostatic motors can be driven by the
>>>>>>>>>> atmospheric electric field indefinitely from an
>>>>>>>>>> appropriate antenna and earth connection.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The deal-breaker is the miniscule power available. Kilovolts,
>>>>>>>> but the total amount of current passing from the ionosphere
>>>>>>>> to the surface is less than two thousand amps. The current
>>>>>>>> that through a square meter parallel to Earth's surface is
>>>>>>>> about ten *pico*amps.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/II_09.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That means you need a large antenna to get even detectable
>>>>>>>> current, let alone enough to do useful work.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's doable, but not feasible. How many acres of land can you
>>>>>>>> afford to cover with a copper mesh roof a thousand feet
>>>>>>>> high?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> copper would corrode, but you could use copper coated steel
>>>>>>> wire like the old telegraph lines. that was tough stuff, and
>>>>>>> went a span of 200' (?)
>>>>>
>>>>> So, silver-plate it. ;>)
>>>
>>>>>>> Actually the mesh could be sparce, put up towers 100' tall 100'
>>>>>>> apart and connect the tops with that telegraph wire.  Im
>>>>>>> thinking of the old rule of tower protects at a 45 degree angle
>>>>>>> the stuff below it from lightning strikes.
> 
>>>>> Yup, more or less.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> But you would have to watch the high voltage insulation of the
>>>>>>> wires from the towers, at 100 v/foot, 100 feet => 10,000 volts
>>>>>>> so tripple that, as when a cloud comes over the E Field goes up
>>>>>>> a lot.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also yup. High-voltage low-current stuff is very tricky to work
>>>>> with- the charge keeps leaking off through the air.
>>>
>>>>>> There are lots of towers much higher than that and they do not
>>>>>> see tens of thousands of volts impressed on them.
>>>>>
>>>>> They tend to be conductive, shorting the field. Tall buildings
>>>>> rapidly get coated with conducting films of bio-crud. It doesn't
>>>>> have to be *very* conductive to leak nanoamps.
> 
>>>> Tower as in antenna tower, e.g. KFI Los Angeles, 750 feet.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> the towers distort the E Field as they provide a lower resistance path
>>> to ground, how much ? the info is out there...
>>>
>>> FYI - most towers are grounded, except some AM station towers, many AM
>>> stations actually use phased arrays of towers, the tower sits on large
>>> insulators, and the pattern is steared to different setting at night
>>> (with power lowered) due to AM's much greater range at night due to
>>> probagation, lower ionosphere I think, FCC rules and regs.
> 
>> KFI has a single, insulated tower 750 feet tall.
>>
>> You claim 100 v/foot, which means the KFI tower should see 75,000 volts
>> at the base.
>>
>> This voltage does not exist.
>>
>> Therefor your base assumption is false.
>>
>>
> 
> not my assumption at all, measured fact;
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_electricity
> 
> http://glossary.ametsoc.org/wiki/Atmospheric_electric_field
> 
> etc.
> 
> However, the current is extremly low, in picoamps, so not much power there

And not near anywhere linear with altitude.

For low altitudes, i.e. less than thousands of feet, the gradiant is
more like 1 to 20 volts/foot, a LONG way from your 100 volts/foot.

> which implies that the E field is distorted around the tower,

Nope.

> remember that voltage potential is huge, results in air breakdown, and 
> lightning, huge voltage over 5,000 feet and more.

5,000 feet is a long way from 100 feet.

Lightning comes from clouds, not clear air.


-- 
Jim Pennino

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#597576

teh tower is a ground;
one can attach a lead to the top, of course

> For low altitudes, i.e. less than thousands of feet, the gradiant is
> more like 1 to 20 volts/foot, a LONG way from your 100 volts/foot.
> 
> > which implies that the E field is distorted around the tower,
> 
> Nope.
> 
> > remember that voltage potential is huge, results in air breakdown, and 
> > lightning, huge voltage over 5,000 feet and more.
> 
> 5,000 feet is a long way from 100 feet.
> 
> Lightning comes from clouds, not clear air.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jim Pennino

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