Re: How about helping optimization in language?

From	Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: How about helping optimization in language?
References	(9 earlier) <2012Mar28.131733@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <7x62do94jc.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <0-ydndWHCKzE2O7SnZ2dnUVZ_jydnZ2d@supernews.com> <7xbonasmz9.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <9IidnbKbIq7H6eTSnZ2dnUVZ_tGdnZ2d@supernews.com>
Date	2012-04-02 17:40 -0700
Message-ID	<7x62dhejfv.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> (permalink)
Organization	Nightsong/Fort GNOX

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Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes:
> I think there's rather a lot of opinion stated as fact in there!  IMO,
> the parallels are clear: the idea of writing a LISP program as a list
> and EVALing it by walking that list is very much core to the idea of
> LISP.  But you can have an optimizing compiler too, as with Forth.

Sure, but anything that can reasonably be called an optimizing compiler
will surely make multiple passes over the code, and Forth is fiendishly
clever in being designed for single pass compilation.  As soon as you've
accepted a multipass compiler, why not relax the source language to be
easier to write in?  Anton mentions the new feature DEFER for forward
references, which is already sort of multi-pass.

I guess I also think of writing Lisp programs as lists as an
implementation artifact rather than something fundamental to Lisp.  The
lists (written with parentheses etc.) are called S-expressions but
historically there was supposed to be a higher level infix form called
M-expressions for writing programs, with S-expressions as something like
intermediate code.  People instead found that they were happy writing
S-expressions directly.  I could go further and think of
Javascript/Python/etc. as Lisp dialects with different surface syntax
but similar semantics.  Or seeing Lisp as lambda calculus, Haskell and
ML are also natural variants using typed lambda calculus and fancier
syntax.  But (maybe wrongly) I think of Forth as inherently linear and
stack oriented.  My reading of Philip Koopman's book on stack computers
is that there really isn't a direct translation from other languages to
traditional Forth.

> I don't even regard Forth's "inconveniences" as such; they're more to
> do with transparency, a kind of What You See Is What You Get, where
> nothing is done under the table.

Paul Bennett has said similar things, in particular that it's possible
to understand and document the behavior of a Forth program all the way
down to the metal (i.e. including the action of the interpreter running
machine instructions).  As soon as an optimizing compiler is out there
juggling the code around in a black box, isn't that transparency lost?
And is turning stack code into register code not a pretty bad
abstraction inversion?

> This is a bit outside my experience, but I doubt that Forth would be
> so awful for writing optimizing compilers: I expect that its
> extensibility would make it better than C, and lots of compilers have
> been written in C.  

Well, I think of C as awful too (the LCC authors said as much).  I
didn't deal with this directly so I don't know the exact issue, but IIRC
there was a period in GCC history when structure-sharing bugs between
optimization passes was a constant source of pain, and this was
eventually handled by building a sort of garbage collector inside the
compiler.  We had another thread here on clf recently in which I could
think of only a few recent compilers written in C.  TCC and LuaJIT were
the ones I remember.  GCC turned 25 years old a few days ago (that made
Slashdot), which is pretty venerable.  Nowadays I look at the amount of
tedious code that it takes to do the simplest things in C, and how
brittle the code is due to the likelihood of pointer errors, and think C
today is best reserved for small, low level tasks.  Is Forth not pretty
much the same way?  I'd be interested in seeing some good examples of
high level Forth code if you have any recommendations--maybe I'm not
looking in the right places.

FWIW, I thought this paper was interesting, about switching from a
traditional mutable data structure to a fancy functional one in a
compiler written in ML:

  (paper) http://www.cs.tufts.edu/~nr/pubs/zipcfg.pdf
  (slides) http://www.eecs.tufts.edu/~dias/talks/zipcfg-ml05-slides.pdf

this is the kind of thing that makes me think of C as primitive.  (I
guess it's possible to implement those structures in C or Forth, but GC
and typechecking sure sound attractive for such purposes).

> It's not that difficult to extend Forth into a high-level
> pattern-matching language, for instance.  Extensibility avoids the
> hoops that gcc has to jump through, where the back end machine
> descriptions are written in a kind of LISP that is preprocessed to
> generate patern matchers in C.

Hmm, that is interesting, I'll have to think a bit about what a tree
pattern matcher in Forth would look like.  But I hadn't thought of that
particular part of GCC (the Lisp-like parser that reads the patterns) as
that big a deal.  Converting the patterns to executable code sounds just
as hard in Forth as in C.  While, reading tree structures is trivial in
Lisp and most other reasonable HLL's these days, but requires a fair
sized chunk of code in C and doesn't seem obviously easy in Forth.  How
do you write

  (a (b c d e) (f g) h (i j k (l m n) o p))

conveniently in postfix?  From the inside out, explicitly counting the
(variable) lengths of the internal lists?  Forth's lack of GC and
typechecking (even runtime typechecking) also would seem to create a lot
of pain for writing something as intricate as a compiler.

> Perhaps.  Writing Forth in not-Forth is suboptimal, though: once you
> get the bootstrap done and it's all Forth life gets a lot easier.  A
> lot of this is about environment and tools: if you have a single
> development environment and toolset, so much the better.

Certainly on a small, self-hosted system with realtime requirements and
no memory protection, that's a big attraction.  I'm not sure if it
matters as much in bigger, multi-process workstation environments like
we generally use now.  It's then mostly about encapsulation.  If someone
wanted to implement an optimizing Forth compiler today, surely it would
be easier to use GCC or LLVM as the back end rather than coding from
scratch in Forth?

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How about helping optimization in language? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 07:26 -0700
  Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-27 09:32 -0500
    Re: How about helping optimization in language? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 08:12 -0700
      Re: How about helping optimization in language? Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2012-03-27 17:48 +0200
        Re: How about helping optimization in language? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 09:04 -0700
          Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-03-28 00:42 +0200
      Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-27 11:34 -0500
        Re: How about helping optimization in language? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 09:46 -0700
          Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-27 12:27 -0500
            Re: How about helping optimization in language? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 11:29 -0700
              Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-27 08:40 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 14:12 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-27 12:27 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-28 03:43 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-03-28 00:41 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-03-28 00:12 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-28 11:17 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-03-28 07:35 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-28 16:31 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-03-28 22:18 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-28 12:07 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-01 22:48 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-02 04:41 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-02 17:40 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-02 15:35 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-02 19:25 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-02 20:45 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-03 00:51 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-02 22:17 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-04-03 02:32 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-04-03 20:22 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-03 11:53 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-03 09:10 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-03 14:16 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-04-05 21:27 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-03 22:27 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-03 10:45 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-04-04 10:34 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-03 00:43 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-03 03:59 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-03 20:34 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-04 05:32 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-07 22:15 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-08 04:55 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-08 15:51 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-08 11:34 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-08 13:11 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-08 23:40 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-08 15:14 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-09 09:37 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 19:05 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-10 10:32 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-08 23:18 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-08 20:51 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-08 19:09 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 21:05 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 21:57 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-09 17:42 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-04-09 09:34 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 22:37 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-10 09:39 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-10 03:12 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-10 23:11 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-10 21:18 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-11 10:00 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-10 22:12 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-10 16:24 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-10 08:34 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-04-09 10:09 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-09 21:21 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 19:02 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 16:44 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 20:00 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 17:27 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 20:49 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 18:12 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-10 10:24 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-10 03:40 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-10 04:39 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-10 03:05 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2012-04-10 18:13 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-10 12:02 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-10 14:36 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-10 23:01 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-11 00:51 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-10 22:18 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-11 02:45 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-04-11 19:47 +0100
                Complexity (was: How about helping optimization in language?) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-09 08:52 +0000
                Re: Complexity (was: How about helping optimization in language?) Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-09 03:01 -0700
                Re: Complexity Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 10:17 -0700
                Re: Complexity "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 11:33 -1000
                Re: Complexity "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 11:43 -1000
                Re: Complexity (was: How about helping optimization in language?) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-10 07:31 +0000
                Re: Complexity (was: How about helping optimization in language?) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-09 17:08 +0200
                Re: Complexity "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 11:21 -1000
                Re: Complexity Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 20:30 -0700
                Re: Complexity "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 22:19 -1000
                Re: Complexity Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-10 01:48 -0700
                Re: Complexity Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-10 01:28 -0700
                Re: Complexity "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 22:48 -1000
                Re: Complexity Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-10 01:51 -0700
                Re: Complexity Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-04-10 20:06 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-09 10:24 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-04-09 16:18 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-09 07:23 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-09 15:27 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-04 06:51 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-03 09:06 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-03 16:13 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-03 12:43 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-03 10:16 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-03 13:41 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-03 11:01 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-03 22:42 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-03 21:11 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-04 01:02 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-04 05:35 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-04-04 15:01 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-06 00:08 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Jan Coombs <jan_2011-02@murray-microft.co.uk> - 2012-04-06 12:05 +0100
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-04-03 15:56 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-03 22:06 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-03 13:22 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-04 05:43 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-04 23:15 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-04 19:02 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-04 13:34 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-02 09:49 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-02 20:04 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-03 09:30 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-03 13:16 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-03 22:45 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-03 23:26 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-03 21:29 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-04 02:32 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-04 07:30 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-04-04 08:51 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-04 10:31 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-07 21:20 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-07 19:18 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-08 15:59 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-08 22:12 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-08 19:42 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-08 23:26 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-08 20:37 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201204.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-04-09 23:33 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 11:52 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 18:42 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 15:57 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 19:08 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 16:29 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 19:53 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 17:05 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 20:15 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-10 21:46 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-10 10:42 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-11 21:26 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-12 00:24 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-12 01:55 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-03 22:06 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-04 13:20 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-04 21:18 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-05 15:36 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-05 18:32 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2012-04-04 04:39 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-04 02:50 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-03 18:07 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-04-05 11:10 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-05 13:21 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-05 23:26 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-05 14:49 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2012-04-06 08:58 +0100
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-06 19:07 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2012-04-07 10:07 +0100
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-07 21:18 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-08 07:36 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-04-08 07:56 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-04-08 07:49 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-03-28 22:06 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-31 13:38 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-02 02:10 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-01 22:32 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-04-02 09:40 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-01 21:44 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-02 01:08 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-04-02 06:47 -0400
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-02 14:38 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-28 15:08 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Gary Bergstrom <g.bergstrom@ieee.org> - 2012-03-28 10:15 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-28 12:00 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? hwfwguy@gmail.com - 2012-03-29 08:52 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-03-29 09:33 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-29 09:44 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? hwfwguy@gmail.com - 2012-03-29 20:59 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-03-30 06:09 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 11:48 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-27 12:35 -1000
              Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-28 03:02 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-28 05:03 -0700
          Re: How about helping optimization in language? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-28 20:17 -0700
          Re: How about helping optimization in language? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-29 11:43 -0700
  Re: How about helping optimization in language? Pablo Hugo Reda <pabloreda@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 12:22 -0700
  Re: How about helping optimization in language? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-28 03:24 -0700
  Re: How about helping optimization in language? jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-04-08 21:56 -0700

csiph-web