Re: How about helping optimization in language?

From	Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: How about helping optimization in language?
References	(16 earlier) <X5OdnUk26I-hvuHSnZ2dnUVZ_jidnZ2d@supernews.com> <7xwr5qdctb.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <jlsvar$j9l$1@online.de> <7xiph9bm0y.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <jlv01a$evd$1@online.de>
Date	2012-04-09 22:37 -0700
Message-ID	<7xiph86tbe.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> (permalink)
Organization	Nightsong/Fort GNOX

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Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> writes:
> Well, you think, and I've seen the counter-examples.  Who's right?  Of 
> course I'm right, because you make a "anyone don't" statement, and I 
> know somebody who does.

OK, you are running around with the wrong crowd ;-).

> My Forth programs quite often work on first try, too.  It's because I'm 
> fluent in Forth.  It's not because the compiler finds the bugs, it's 
> because I don't make them.

I've always been advised to write Forth one word at a time, each word
with just a line or two of code, testing it before going on to the next
one.  Writing a screenful of Forth in one shot is apparently not common
practice, though if you can manage it, that's great for you.  The types
of errors I'm describing don't have much to do with the language.  It's
more like my patch interacting in some wrong and unexpected way with
some faraway part of the program, or maybe even something dumb like
mis-remembering some function and passing its args in the wrong order.
Types help with both of those.

> Maybe you are just more fluent in Haskell than in C or Python.

Not at all, I've been fooling with Haskell for several years now, but in
an on-and-off way, so I'm really not much past the newbie phase.  It's
my first choice by now for stuff like Euler problems but I don't feel
capable of complex system programming in it yet (I know how to do it in
principle but would probably hit roadblocks and miss deadlines).  I will
definitely say that Haskell has changed my view about type systems.  I
used to be dismissive towards them just like you are now.

> http://xkcd.com/538/

Wrong xkcd, you have to catch the person before you can do that.  And
once they know where the person is, they don't bother with the wrench.
See: http://xkcd.com/652/

> Anyways, my suggestion is to stop using RSA, because the problem 
> RSA uses is not hard enough, i.e. it is quite likely actually not in NP, 
> which is a rather bad thing for the reverse operation of a cryptographic 
> algorithm.  Those operations should be all in NP.

I don't think you know what "NP" means if you believe that paragraph
makes any sense.  And I wonder what specific public-key (or even
secret-key) crypto algorithms you think are "in NP".

> Mozilla started as a one-person project, and Marc Andreesen got pretty
> far alone.

You're comparing Netscape 1.0 with what people expect browsers to do
today?  (Try using Google Docs with it).  And Andreesen depended on
plenty of other code, like jpeg rendering, written by other people with
specialized knowledge.

> in the meantime, a small team at KDE created what now is called WebKit, 
> proving that the work of a small team is better than that of a large 
> team, even attacking the same problem.

It's true you can shed complexity by starting over when you know what
the end result is supposed to look like, instead of building on layers
of cruft that piled up as requirements evolved.  Also though, Webkit is
just an HTML engine, comparable to Mozilla's Gecko from what I
understand.  There is a lot of other stuff wrapped around it to make a
full-function browser.

> Or compare Word with TeX: TeX's engine is a one-man project. 

Yes, and only nerds ever used TeX.  I'm ok with TeX because I'm a nerd,
but consumers always wanted wysiwig word processors rather than markup
based formatters.  

> If you have a detailed complicated spec and no redefinition 
> allowed, you already know why you will fail.

Tell that to Apple, which is making billions from the iphone, that
implements an insane amount of complicated specs.  Really, just imagine
yourself in charge of the software for a modern fancy cell phone, and
how many specs it has to implement, starting from the baseband radios.
There are the N different data modulation and power control schemes
designed by telecom bureaucracies (or worse, committees composed of
representatives from multiple telecom bureaucracies).  There are the
voice and music and video codecs so Aunt Betty can make phone calls and
play mp3's and surf Youtube.  There is the GPS, with specs written by
the US military, the one bureaucracy worse than the telecoms.  I found
it interesting to hear that GPS signals are affected by gravity enough
that to get accurate positioning, you need correction terms figured
using general relativity.  I guess you could program that correction
with a formula from a textbook without actually understanding it, but
that means you're sort of involving the textbook writer.  There is the
wifi, the bluetooth, the capacitive touch screen, etc.  All that stuff
has to be implemented by experts (you'd use existing code, but it still
counts, the people who wrote that code had to follow those specs to the
letter or the product won't work).  And we haven't even gotten to the
regular computer stuff.  There has to be an email client that can read
Word documents and an appointment calendar that syncs with Microsoft
Exchange, more crazy specs.  The browser, the TCP/IP, you get the idea.
If you only write apps that call libraries or system services, you're
sort of in the "manager" position, but somebody--a LOT of somebodies--
had to actually write all that code.

You see, the 1980's era of self-contained systems and products is
ancient history.  Today, almost anything nontrivial has to interoperate
with existing stuff using crappy protocols designed by committees, which
means mountains of specs.  Even ANS Forth is a (slightly) messy spec.
It's just the real world.  Get used to it, find yourself a lucky niche
where you don't have to deal with it, or consign yourself to
irrelevance.  You can't wish it away.

> Despite the hype about Java being the ultimate language for big teams, 
> the only real success story of Java I know is the Anroid app ecosystem 
> (because there, people are forced to use Java). 

I don't like Java much but I'd consider Hadoop (mapreduce framework),
Lucene/Solr (search engine), Eclipse (IDE), Hudson/Jenkins (software
integration), and Cassandra (database) to all be pretty successful, just
among FOSS stuff that I've personally used or dealt with.  There is also
tons of server side stuff in Java; for example, I've heard that gmail is
written in Java.  I mentioned Java in connection with CCS because Java
is sort of the Cobol of the 1990's and is the most obvious choice for a
business app like that, but I frankly don't know what I'd use it if were
up to me.

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Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-27 11:34 -0500
  Re: How about helping optimization in language? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 09:46 -0700
    Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-27 12:27 -0500
      Re: How about helping optimization in language? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 11:29 -0700
        Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-27 08:40 -1000
          Re: How about helping optimization in language? John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 14:12 -0700
            Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-27 12:27 -1000
              Re: How about helping optimization in language? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-28 03:43 -0700
            Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-03-28 00:41 +0200
              Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-03-28 00:12 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-28 11:17 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-03-28 07:35 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-28 16:31 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-03-28 22:18 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-28 12:07 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-01 22:48 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-02 04:41 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-02 17:40 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-02 15:35 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-02 19:25 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-02 20:45 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-03 00:51 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-02 22:17 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-04-03 02:32 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-04-03 20:22 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-03 11:53 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-03 09:10 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-03 14:16 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-04-05 21:27 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-03 22:27 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-03 10:45 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-04-04 10:34 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-03 00:43 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-03 03:59 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-03 20:34 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-04 05:32 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-07 22:15 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-08 04:55 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-08 15:51 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-08 11:34 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-08 13:11 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-08 23:40 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-08 15:14 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-09 09:37 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 19:05 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-10 10:32 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-08 23:18 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-08 20:51 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-08 19:09 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 21:05 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 21:57 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-09 17:42 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-04-09 09:34 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 22:37 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-10 09:39 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-10 03:12 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-10 23:11 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-10 21:18 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-11 10:00 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-10 22:12 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-10 16:24 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-10 08:34 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-04-09 10:09 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-09 21:21 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 19:02 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 16:44 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 20:00 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 17:27 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 20:49 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 18:12 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-10 10:24 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-10 03:40 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-10 04:39 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-10 03:05 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2012-04-10 18:13 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-10 12:02 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-10 14:36 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-10 23:01 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-11 00:51 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-10 22:18 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-11 02:45 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-04-11 19:47 +0100
                Complexity (was: How about helping optimization in language?) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-09 08:52 +0000
                Re: Complexity (was: How about helping optimization in language?) Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-09 03:01 -0700
                Re: Complexity Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 10:17 -0700
                Re: Complexity "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 11:33 -1000
                Re: Complexity "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 11:43 -1000
                Re: Complexity (was: How about helping optimization in language?) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-10 07:31 +0000
                Re: Complexity (was: How about helping optimization in language?) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-09 17:08 +0200
                Re: Complexity "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 11:21 -1000
                Re: Complexity Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 20:30 -0700
                Re: Complexity "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 22:19 -1000
                Re: Complexity Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-10 01:48 -0700
                Re: Complexity Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-10 01:28 -0700
                Re: Complexity "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 22:48 -1000
                Re: Complexity Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-10 01:51 -0700
                Re: Complexity Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-04-10 20:06 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-09 10:24 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-04-09 16:18 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-09 07:23 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-09 15:27 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-04 06:51 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-03 09:06 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-03 16:13 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-03 12:43 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-03 10:16 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-03 13:41 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-03 11:01 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-03 22:42 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-03 21:11 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-04 01:02 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-04 05:35 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-04-04 15:01 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-06 00:08 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Jan Coombs <jan_2011-02@murray-microft.co.uk> - 2012-04-06 12:05 +0100
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-04-03 15:56 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-03 22:06 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-03 13:22 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-04 05:43 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-04 23:15 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-04 19:02 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-04 13:34 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-02 09:49 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-02 20:04 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-03 09:30 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-03 13:16 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-03 22:45 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-03 23:26 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-03 21:29 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-04 02:32 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-04 07:30 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-04-04 08:51 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-04 10:31 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-07 21:20 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-07 19:18 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-08 15:59 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-08 22:12 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-08 19:42 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-08 23:26 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-08 20:37 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201204.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-04-09 23:33 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 11:52 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 18:42 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 15:57 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 19:08 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 16:29 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 19:53 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 17:05 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 20:15 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-10 21:46 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-10 10:42 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-11 21:26 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-12 00:24 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-12 01:55 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-03 22:06 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-04 13:20 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-04 21:18 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-05 15:36 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-05 18:32 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2012-04-04 04:39 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-04 02:50 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-03 18:07 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-04-05 11:10 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-05 13:21 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-05 23:26 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-05 14:49 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2012-04-06 08:58 +0100
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-06 19:07 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2012-04-07 10:07 +0100
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-07 21:18 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-08 07:36 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-04-08 07:56 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-04-08 07:49 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-03-28 22:06 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-31 13:38 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-02 02:10 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-01 22:32 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-04-02 09:40 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-01 21:44 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-02 01:08 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-04-02 06:47 -0400
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-02 14:38 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-28 15:08 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Gary Bergstrom <g.bergstrom@ieee.org> - 2012-03-28 10:15 -0700
            Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-28 12:00 -0500
            Re: How about helping optimization in language? hwfwguy@gmail.com - 2012-03-29 08:52 -0700
              Re: How about helping optimization in language? John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-03-29 09:33 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-29 09:44 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? hwfwguy@gmail.com - 2012-03-29 20:59 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-03-30 06:09 -0700
          Re: How about helping optimization in language? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 11:48 -0700
            Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-27 12:35 -1000
        Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-28 03:02 -0500
          Re: How about helping optimization in language? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-28 05:03 -0700
    Re: How about helping optimization in language? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-28 20:17 -0700
    Re: How about helping optimization in language? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-29 11:43 -0700

csiph-web