Re: How about helping optimization in language?

From	"Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: How about helping optimization in language?
Followup-To	comp.lang.forth
Date	2012-04-11 19:47 +0100
Organization	Hidecs Consultancy
Message-ID	<9um21bFbviU1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References	(11 earlier) <2012Apr10.163607@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <7xr4vu4xjd.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <ba561f80-4dca-4b9d-90c6-75fe04712000@w17g2000yqe.googlegroups.com> <ktOdnWPavdbFoxjSnZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@supernews.com> <7xty0qsiu2.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

Followups directed to: comp.lang.forth

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Paul Rubin wrote:

> "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> writes:
>>> Yet NASA, as a case in point, has a long history with Forth - a
>> And it's flown in a number of satellites and spacecraft. Paul
>> Bennett,...
> 
> Heh, yeah, I'd forgotten about NASA as a historically important Forth
> user.  I wonder if they still do anything in Forth.  I had been thinking
> of an article I saw a while back, about the Space Shuttle software,
> which is written in Ada and uses a lot of static analysis tools.
> 
> Of course I'm aware of Paul Bennett and mentioned him further up in this
> thread, and was thinking of him a little when I wrote that post about
> NASA.  He compares Forth to assembly language in terms of the inspection
> level needed, and and certifies Forth words with a manual, multi-person
> code review process that has to be done by experts.  I guess it
> generates the confidence levels that he requires, and may have various
> flexibility or other advantages over machine verification.  But I have
> to think that at least, running a program has to be more repeatable than
> any type of careful process involving humans.

Automated verification can only check against a set of rules that have to be 
codified to provide a yes/no type result. Great for some checking but still 
not as good as a well trained human eye.

My checking process is applied on a word by word basis and uses the glossary 
definition (which is written and reviewed before the code portion) to check 
the code for layout against the coding standard in use, proper functioning 
as evidenced to Fagan Inspection, proper function when run, and proper 
behaviour in stressed circumstances. Any reasonable Forth programmer could 
be taught how to do this level of inspection and testing.

Coupling the inspection and test regime to a decent versioning repository 
and change tracking system will assist in producing high quality, robust 
software.

-- 
********************************************************************
Paul E. Bennett...............<email://Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk>
Forth based HIDECS Consultancy
Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972
Tel: +44 (0)1235-510979
Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk..
********************************************************************

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Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-01 22:48 -0700
  Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-02 04:41 -0500
    Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-02 17:40 -0700
      Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-02 15:35 -1000
        Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-02 19:25 -0700
          Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-02 20:45 -1000
          Re: How about helping optimization in language? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-03 00:51 -0700
            Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-02 22:17 -1000
              Re: How about helping optimization in language? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-04-03 02:32 -0700
            Re: How about helping optimization in language? mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-04-03 20:22 +0200
              Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-03 11:53 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-03 09:10 -1000
              Re: How about helping optimization in language? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-03 14:16 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-04-05 21:27 +0200
            Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-03 22:27 +0200
              Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-03 10:45 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-04-04 10:34 +0000
          Re: How about helping optimization in language? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-03 00:43 -0700
      Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-03 03:59 -0500
        Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-03 20:34 -0700
          Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-04 05:32 -0500
            Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-07 22:15 -0700
              Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-08 04:55 -0500
              Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-08 15:51 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-08 11:34 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-08 13:11 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-08 23:40 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-08 15:14 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-09 09:37 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 19:05 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-10 10:32 +0000
              Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-08 23:18 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-08 20:51 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-08 19:09 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 21:05 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 21:57 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-09 17:42 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-04-09 09:34 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 22:37 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-10 09:39 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-10 03:12 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-10 23:11 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-10 21:18 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-11 10:00 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-10 22:12 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-10 16:24 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-10 08:34 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-04-09 10:09 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-09 21:21 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 19:02 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 16:44 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 20:00 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 17:27 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 20:49 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 18:12 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-10 10:24 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-10 03:40 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-10 04:39 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-10 03:05 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2012-04-10 18:13 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-10 12:02 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-10 14:36 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-10 23:01 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-11 00:51 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-10 22:18 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-11 02:45 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-04-11 19:47 +0100
                Complexity (was: How about helping optimization in language?) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-09 08:52 +0000
                Re: Complexity (was: How about helping optimization in language?) Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-09 03:01 -0700
                Re: Complexity Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 10:17 -0700
                Re: Complexity "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 11:33 -1000
                Re: Complexity "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 11:43 -1000
                Re: Complexity (was: How about helping optimization in language?) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-10 07:31 +0000
                Re: Complexity (was: How about helping optimization in language?) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-09 17:08 +0200
                Re: Complexity "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 11:21 -1000
                Re: Complexity Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 20:30 -0700
                Re: Complexity "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 22:19 -1000
                Re: Complexity Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-10 01:48 -0700
                Re: Complexity Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-10 01:28 -0700
                Re: Complexity "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 22:48 -1000
                Re: Complexity Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-10 01:51 -0700
                Re: Complexity Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-04-10 20:06 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-09 10:24 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-04-09 16:18 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-09 07:23 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-09 15:27 +0000
          Re: How about helping optimization in language? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-04 06:51 -0700
      Re: How about helping optimization in language? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-03 09:06 +0000
      Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-03 16:13 +0000
        Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-03 12:43 -0700
          Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-03 10:16 -1000
            Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-03 13:41 -0700
              Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-03 11:01 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-03 22:42 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-03 21:11 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-04 01:02 -0700
          Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-04 05:35 -0500
            Re: How about helping optimization in language? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-04-04 15:01 +0000
            Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-06 00:08 -0700
              Re: How about helping optimization in language? Jan Coombs <jan_2011-02@murray-microft.co.uk> - 2012-04-06 12:05 +0100
          Re: How about helping optimization in language? Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-04-03 15:56 -0700
        Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-03 22:06 +0200
          Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-03 13:22 -0700
          Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-04 05:43 -0500
            Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-04 23:15 +0200
            Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-04 19:02 -0700
          Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-04 13:34 +0000
  Re: How about helping optimization in language? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-02 09:49 +0000
    Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-02 20:04 -0700
      Re: How about helping optimization in language? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-03 09:30 +0000
        Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-03 13:16 -0700
          Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-03 22:45 +0200
            Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-03 23:26 -0700
              Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-03 21:29 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-04 02:32 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-04 07:30 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-04-04 08:51 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-04 10:31 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-07 21:20 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-07 19:18 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-08 15:59 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-08 22:12 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-08 19:42 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-08 23:26 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-08 20:37 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201204.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-04-09 23:33 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 11:52 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 18:42 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 15:57 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 19:08 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 16:29 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 19:53 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 17:05 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 20:15 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-10 21:46 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-10 10:42 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-11 21:26 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-12 00:24 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-12 01:55 -0700
          Re: How about helping optimization in language? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-03 22:06 +0000
            Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-04 13:20 +0000
              Re: How about helping optimization in language? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-04 21:18 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-05 15:36 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-05 18:32 +0000
          Re: How about helping optimization in language? kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2012-04-04 04:39 -0500
            Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-04 02:50 -0700
          Re: How about helping optimization in language? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-03 18:07 -0700
            Re: How about helping optimization in language? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-04-05 11:10 +0000
              Re: How about helping optimization in language? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-05 13:21 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-05 23:26 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-05 14:49 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2012-04-06 08:58 +0100
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-06 19:07 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2012-04-07 10:07 +0100
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-07 21:18 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-08 07:36 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-04-08 07:56 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-04-08 07:49 -0700

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