Re: How about helping optimization in language?

From	Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: How about helping optimization in language?
References	(15 earlier) <st2dnT47lZmSIefSnZ2dnUVZ_qydnZ2d@supernews.com> <7x398knpan.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <X5OdnUk26I-hvuHSnZ2dnUVZ_jidnZ2d@supernews.com> <7xwr5qdctb.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <jlsvar$j9l$1@online.de>
Date	2012-04-08 20:51 -0700
Message-ID	<7xiph9bm0y.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> (permalink)
Organization	Nightsong/Fort GNOX

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Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> writes:
> I can understand the psychological reasoning that makes people believe 
> this: The compiler can and does find a lot of bugs, in contrast to a 
> Forth compiler, which essentially finds typos and mismatched control 
> structures, and nothing more (not even a mismatch between stack comment 
> and real stack effect).  This observation leads to the wrong believe 
> that the compiler finds all bugs.  No, it just finds the easy ones. 

I don't think anyone is naive enough to think the compiler is guaranteed
to find all the bugs.  I just observe that in Haskell, the chance that
the compiler does find all the bugs is actually pretty good.  In C or
Python, when I write (say) a 30-line patch to an unfamiliar program and
start testing it after getting it to compile, I usually (not always)
find that I missed something and I have to fix the patch.  If it passes
all tests the first try, that's a nice surprise.  With Haskell, it
doesn't ALWAYS work the first try, but that happens rather often rather
than as a rarity.  And hopefully, the chances are also lower of the
patch having some subtler bug that's undetected even after testing, but
that bites someone in the field.

> The idea that problems are inherently complex, instead of just full of 
> accidental complexity, created by the inability to see clearly, and that 
> you have to attack it "head on", this is really silly.  Complexity is 
> the enemy, complexity is what we humans can't handle, but create in our 
> attempt to do so.  You don't attack an enemy that strong "head on".

I'm in possession of a 300-decimal-digit number N which is known to be
the product of two unknown primes P and Q.  I'd like to tell you N and
have you tell me what P and Q are, so I can break a code and catch the
terrorists.  How would you propose to find P and Q?  The only feasbile
way known right now is the Distributed Number Field Sieve (DNFS), which
is a fancy algorithm based on a lot of pointy-headed abstract algebra,
plus you'll have to use a rather large computing cluster to get the
answer before the terrorists dies of old age.  You'll need a bunch of
distributed computation hacking, a bunch of organizational aplomb to get
the machines without anyone noticing, etc.  Maybe you want to build
custom VLSI (Bernstein's parallel NFS circuits) which will take
developing more fancy math (it's just a theoretical construction now;
getting it to actually work is probably at least a PhD topic).  You
can't duck the problem or the terrorists will win--think of the
children!!!  ;-)

If N had only 100 digits you could do it on a PC with fairly simple
methods, and if it had 1000 digits it would be hopeless without
surprising new math discoveries, but this N has 300 digits, which I
think is somewhere near the outer edge of tractability with known
methods (maybe I'm off by a little).  You can solve it by attacking
head-on the problem of implementing the complicated DNFS algorithm
(assuming you can't use someone else's implementation) and burning a
vast amount of CPU cycles and memory.  There is no (known) clever
shortcut and it's unlikely that any exists (lots of good mathematicians
have worked hard looking for them).  It's time for the head-on attack,
as far as I can tell.  Your budget is X million dollars and you'll
probably need it.  Good luck ;-).

> If you find that most Forth programs have been written by small teams or 
> just one person: Don't look at the number of lines, look at the 
> functionality achieved.  It is not economic to deploy a huge team if you 
> can do with a lot less people.  So why would anybody do if he can solve 
> the problem without?

There is functionality that can't be realistically implemented without a
large-ish team.  As a mundane example, Microsoft Word or Mozilla Firefox
were written by large teams, and implement a lot of functionality that
would also have taken a large team using Forth.  Saying "well, that's
not useful functionality, I'd write totally different and simpler
instead" is a Chuck Moore approach of redefining the problem, which is
great when you can get away with it (my interest in Forth is partly
because I want to get better at that).  But, sometimes you just have to
do a complex task exactly as specified in all details, no redefining
allowed.  That's another example of attacking complexity head-on.

> CCS is the largest Forth program known.... it clearly has to be said:
> The way to create big Forth programs is to stop using its strengths.

Thanks, I had been wondering about CCS, and that description is
informative.  I wonder how the development time / coder productivity
compared to hypothetically doing the same thing in (say) Python or even
Java.  Not that I'm a fan of Java, don't get me wrong.

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Thread

How about helping optimization in language? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 07:26 -0700
  Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-27 09:32 -0500
    Re: How about helping optimization in language? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 08:12 -0700
      Re: How about helping optimization in language? Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2012-03-27 17:48 +0200
        Re: How about helping optimization in language? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 09:04 -0700
          Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-03-28 00:42 +0200
      Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-27 11:34 -0500
        Re: How about helping optimization in language? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 09:46 -0700
          Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-27 12:27 -0500
            Re: How about helping optimization in language? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 11:29 -0700
              Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-27 08:40 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 14:12 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-27 12:27 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-28 03:43 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-03-28 00:41 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-03-28 00:12 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-28 11:17 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-03-28 07:35 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-28 16:31 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-03-28 22:18 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-28 12:07 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-01 22:48 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-02 04:41 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-02 17:40 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-02 15:35 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-02 19:25 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-02 20:45 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-03 00:51 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-02 22:17 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-04-03 02:32 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-04-03 20:22 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-03 11:53 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-03 09:10 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-03 14:16 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-04-05 21:27 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-03 22:27 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-03 10:45 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-04-04 10:34 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-03 00:43 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-03 03:59 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-03 20:34 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-04 05:32 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-07 22:15 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-08 04:55 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-08 15:51 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-08 11:34 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-08 13:11 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-08 23:40 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-08 15:14 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-09 09:37 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 19:05 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-10 10:32 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-08 23:18 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-08 20:51 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-08 19:09 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 21:05 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 21:57 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-09 17:42 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-04-09 09:34 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 22:37 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-10 09:39 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-10 03:12 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-10 23:11 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-10 21:18 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-11 10:00 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-10 22:12 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-10 16:24 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-10 08:34 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-04-09 10:09 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-09 21:21 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 19:02 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 16:44 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 20:00 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 17:27 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 20:49 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 18:12 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-10 10:24 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-10 03:40 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-10 04:39 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-10 03:05 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2012-04-10 18:13 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-10 12:02 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-10 14:36 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-10 23:01 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-11 00:51 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-10 22:18 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-11 02:45 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-04-11 19:47 +0100
                Complexity (was: How about helping optimization in language?) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-09 08:52 +0000
                Re: Complexity (was: How about helping optimization in language?) Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-09 03:01 -0700
                Re: Complexity Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 10:17 -0700
                Re: Complexity "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 11:33 -1000
                Re: Complexity "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 11:43 -1000
                Re: Complexity (was: How about helping optimization in language?) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-10 07:31 +0000
                Re: Complexity (was: How about helping optimization in language?) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-09 17:08 +0200
                Re: Complexity "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 11:21 -1000
                Re: Complexity Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 20:30 -0700
                Re: Complexity "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 22:19 -1000
                Re: Complexity Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-10 01:48 -0700
                Re: Complexity Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-10 01:28 -0700
                Re: Complexity "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 22:48 -1000
                Re: Complexity Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-10 01:51 -0700
                Re: Complexity Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-04-10 20:06 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-09 10:24 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-04-09 16:18 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-09 07:23 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-09 15:27 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-04 06:51 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-03 09:06 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-03 16:13 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-03 12:43 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-03 10:16 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-03 13:41 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-03 11:01 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-03 22:42 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-03 21:11 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-04 01:02 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-04 05:35 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-04-04 15:01 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-06 00:08 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Jan Coombs <jan_2011-02@murray-microft.co.uk> - 2012-04-06 12:05 +0100
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-04-03 15:56 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-03 22:06 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-03 13:22 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-04 05:43 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-04 23:15 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-04 19:02 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-04 13:34 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-02 09:49 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-02 20:04 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-03 09:30 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-03 13:16 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-03 22:45 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-03 23:26 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-03 21:29 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-04 02:32 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-04 07:30 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-04-04 08:51 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-04 10:31 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-07 21:20 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-07 19:18 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-08 15:59 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-08 22:12 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-08 19:42 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-08 23:26 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-08 20:37 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201204.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-04-09 23:33 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 11:52 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 18:42 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 15:57 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 19:08 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 16:29 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 19:53 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 17:05 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 20:15 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-10 21:46 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-10 10:42 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-11 21:26 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-12 00:24 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-12 01:55 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-03 22:06 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-04 13:20 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-04 21:18 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-05 15:36 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-05 18:32 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2012-04-04 04:39 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-04 02:50 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-03 18:07 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-04-05 11:10 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-05 13:21 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-05 23:26 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-05 14:49 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2012-04-06 08:58 +0100
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-06 19:07 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2012-04-07 10:07 +0100
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-07 21:18 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-08 07:36 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-04-08 07:56 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-04-08 07:49 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-03-28 22:06 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-31 13:38 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-02 02:10 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-01 22:32 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-04-02 09:40 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-01 21:44 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-02 01:08 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-04-02 06:47 -0400
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-02 14:38 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-28 15:08 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Gary Bergstrom <g.bergstrom@ieee.org> - 2012-03-28 10:15 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-28 12:00 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? hwfwguy@gmail.com - 2012-03-29 08:52 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-03-29 09:33 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-29 09:44 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? hwfwguy@gmail.com - 2012-03-29 20:59 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-03-30 06:09 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 11:48 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-27 12:35 -1000
              Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-28 03:02 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-28 05:03 -0700
          Re: How about helping optimization in language? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-28 20:17 -0700
          Re: How about helping optimization in language? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-29 11:43 -0700
  Re: How about helping optimization in language? Pablo Hugo Reda <pabloreda@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 12:22 -0700
  Re: How about helping optimization in language? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-28 03:24 -0700
  Re: How about helping optimization in language? jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-04-08 21:56 -0700

csiph-web