Re: How about helping optimization in language?

From	Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: How about helping optimization in language?
Date	2012-04-08 23:18 +0200
Organization	1&1 Internet AG
Message-ID	<jlsvar$j9l$1@online.de> (permalink)
References	(14 earlier) <7x62dhejfv.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <st2dnT47lZmSIefSnZ2dnUVZ_qydnZ2d@supernews.com> <7x398knpan.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <X5OdnUk26I-hvuHSnZ2dnUVZ_jidnZ2d@supernews.com> <7xwr5qdctb.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

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Paul Rubin wrote:
> One thing I learned coming to Haskell from Lisp and Python, is that
> precise type systems allow expressing concepts and reasoning (as
> opposed to just steps to carry out) directly in the code: the type
> system can track invariants all over the program.  It's hard to write
> code with conceptual errors and get it to compile, because the type
> system catches the errors.  Anecdotally, if your patch compiles at
> all, it probably works correctly too.

I've heard similar things from VDHL people.  It's bullocks.  Yes, it is 
hard to compile something successfully in VHDL, but if you succeed, the 
*bugs* in the code are still there.  The logic bugs and all that stuff.  
You add a new layer of possible bugs, which are then caught by the 
compiler, and by making it hard and time-consuming to squash out these 
bugs, the programmer is so happy to have succeeded that he forgets to 
fix the remaining bugs.

It's now 14 years ago that I worked together with this VHDL guy at 
Siemens HL, and for testing his code, we already had something written 
in a C++ modeling language (by me).  Any discrepancy between my model 
(which was the "executable spec") and his VHDL code was always my fault.  
Probably including the 500+ latches his 5000 lines case statement 
created.

I can understand the psychological reasoning that makes people believe 
this: The compiler can and does find a lot of bugs, in contrast to a 
Forth compiler, which essentially finds typos and mismatched control 
structures, and nothing more (not even a mismatch between stack comment 
and real stack effect).  This observation leads to the wrong believe 
that the compiler finds all bugs.  No, it just finds the easy ones.  It 
is probably better to have a compiler which doesn't even try to pretent 
it can find bugs.

The idea that problems are inherently complex, instead of just full of 
accidental complexity, created by the inability to see clearly, and that 
you have to attack it "head on", this is really silly.  Complexity is 
the enemy, complexity is what we humans can't handle, but create in our 
attempt to do so.  You don't attack an enemy that strong "head on".

If you find that most Forth programs have been written by small teams or 
just one person: Don't look at the number of lines, look at the 
functionality achieved.  It is not economic to deploy a huge team if you 
can do with a lot less people.  So why would anybody do if he can solve 
the problem without?

CCS is the largest Forth program known.  It's probably also the largest 
team of Forth programmers.  Willem explains what he does, and his 
management is pretty conventional: He restricts his people to a pretty 
boring style, where they can't sneakily attack the complexity from 
behind - no clever things allowed.  I'm not convinced that what he does 
is the right way, but it is his business decision.  But it clearly has 
to be said: The way to create big Forth programs is to stop using its 
strengths.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://bernd-paysan.de/

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How about helping optimization in language? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 07:26 -0700
  Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-27 09:32 -0500
    Re: How about helping optimization in language? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 08:12 -0700
      Re: How about helping optimization in language? Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2012-03-27 17:48 +0200
        Re: How about helping optimization in language? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 09:04 -0700
          Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-03-28 00:42 +0200
      Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-27 11:34 -0500
        Re: How about helping optimization in language? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 09:46 -0700
          Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-27 12:27 -0500
            Re: How about helping optimization in language? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 11:29 -0700
              Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-27 08:40 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 14:12 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-27 12:27 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-28 03:43 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-03-28 00:41 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-03-28 00:12 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-28 11:17 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-03-28 07:35 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-28 16:31 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-03-28 22:18 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-28 12:07 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-01 22:48 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-02 04:41 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-02 17:40 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-02 15:35 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-02 19:25 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-02 20:45 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-03 00:51 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-02 22:17 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-04-03 02:32 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-04-03 20:22 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-03 11:53 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-03 09:10 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-03 14:16 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-04-05 21:27 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-03 22:27 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-03 10:45 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-04-04 10:34 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-03 00:43 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-03 03:59 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-03 20:34 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-04 05:32 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-07 22:15 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-08 04:55 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-08 15:51 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-08 11:34 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-08 13:11 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-08 23:40 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-08 15:14 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-09 09:37 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 19:05 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-10 10:32 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-08 23:18 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-08 20:51 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-08 19:09 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 21:05 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 21:57 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-09 17:42 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-04-09 09:34 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 22:37 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-10 09:39 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-10 03:12 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-10 23:11 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-10 21:18 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-11 10:00 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-10 22:12 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-10 16:24 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-10 08:34 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-04-09 10:09 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-09 21:21 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 19:02 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 16:44 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 20:00 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 17:27 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 20:49 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 18:12 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-10 10:24 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-10 03:40 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-10 04:39 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-10 03:05 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2012-04-10 18:13 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-10 12:02 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-10 14:36 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-10 23:01 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-11 00:51 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-10 22:18 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-11 02:45 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-04-11 19:47 +0100
                Complexity (was: How about helping optimization in language?) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-09 08:52 +0000
                Re: Complexity (was: How about helping optimization in language?) Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-09 03:01 -0700
                Re: Complexity Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 10:17 -0700
                Re: Complexity "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 11:33 -1000
                Re: Complexity "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 11:43 -1000
                Re: Complexity (was: How about helping optimization in language?) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-10 07:31 +0000
                Re: Complexity (was: How about helping optimization in language?) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-09 17:08 +0200
                Re: Complexity "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 11:21 -1000
                Re: Complexity Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 20:30 -0700
                Re: Complexity "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 22:19 -1000
                Re: Complexity Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-10 01:48 -0700
                Re: Complexity Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-10 01:28 -0700
                Re: Complexity "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 22:48 -1000
                Re: Complexity Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-10 01:51 -0700
                Re: Complexity Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-04-10 20:06 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-09 10:24 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-04-09 16:18 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-09 07:23 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-09 15:27 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-04 06:51 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-03 09:06 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-03 16:13 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-03 12:43 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-03 10:16 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-03 13:41 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-03 11:01 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-03 22:42 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-03 21:11 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-04 01:02 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-04 05:35 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-04-04 15:01 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-06 00:08 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Jan Coombs <jan_2011-02@murray-microft.co.uk> - 2012-04-06 12:05 +0100
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-04-03 15:56 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-03 22:06 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-03 13:22 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-04-04 05:43 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-04 23:15 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-04 19:02 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-04 13:34 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-02 09:49 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-02 20:04 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-03 09:30 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-03 13:16 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-03 22:45 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-03 23:26 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-03 21:29 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-04 02:32 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-04 07:30 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-04-04 08:51 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-04 10:31 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-07 21:20 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-07 19:18 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-08 15:59 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-08 22:12 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-08 19:42 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-08 23:26 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-08 20:37 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201204.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-04-09 23:33 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 11:52 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 18:42 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 15:57 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 19:08 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 16:29 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 19:53 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-09 17:05 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-09 20:15 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-10 21:46 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-10 10:42 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-11 21:26 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-12 00:24 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-12 01:55 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-03 22:06 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-04 13:20 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-04 21:18 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-05 15:36 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-05 18:32 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2012-04-04 04:39 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-04 02:50 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-03 18:07 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-04-05 11:10 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-05 13:21 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-05 23:26 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-05 14:49 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2012-04-06 08:58 +0100
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-06 19:07 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2012-04-07 10:07 +0100
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-07 21:18 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-08 07:36 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-04-08 07:56 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-04-08 07:49 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-03-28 22:06 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-31 13:38 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-04-02 02:10 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-01 22:32 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-04-02 09:40 +0200
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-01 21:44 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-02 01:08 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-04-02 06:47 -0400
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-02 14:38 +0000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-28 15:08 -1000
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Gary Bergstrom <g.bergstrom@ieee.org> - 2012-03-28 10:15 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-28 12:00 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? hwfwguy@gmail.com - 2012-03-29 08:52 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-03-29 09:33 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-29 09:44 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? hwfwguy@gmail.com - 2012-03-29 20:59 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-03-30 06:09 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 11:48 -0700
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-27 12:35 -1000
              Re: How about helping optimization in language? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-28 03:02 -0500
                Re: How about helping optimization in language? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-28 05:03 -0700
          Re: How about helping optimization in language? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-28 20:17 -0700
          Re: How about helping optimization in language? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-29 11:43 -0700
  Re: How about helping optimization in language? Pablo Hugo Reda <pabloreda@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 12:22 -0700
  Re: How about helping optimization in language? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-28 03:24 -0700
  Re: How about helping optimization in language? jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-04-08 21:56 -0700

csiph-web