Re: For sale...

From	nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>
Newsgroups	comp.sys.mac.apps
Subject	Re: For sale...
Date	2011-03-04 15:08 -0800
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<040320111508044886%nospam@nospam.invalid> (permalink)
References	<040320111324095178%nospam@nospam.invalid> <ikrdif$j6a$1@news.eternal-september.org>

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In article <ikrdif$j6a$1@news.eternal-september.org>, Erilar
<drache@chibardun.netinvalid> wrote:

> >>> you said film cameras were easier to use, quicker to focus and set
> >>> stops and shutter speeds. they're not. i did pick one of the fastest
> >>> dslrs made to prove a point, but even lower end models are faster 
> >> 
> >> "faster" interptretations vary, as do those for "easy".
> > 
> > what alternate interpretations of 'faster' could there be? 
> > 
> > if something takes less time than something else, it is faster. if it
> > takes more time, it's not faster.
>
> Fast film.  

digital is faster. the nikon d3s goes up to iso 102,400. most dslrs go
to 3200 or 6400. what film came anywhere close to that? at iso 3200 and
even 6400, the nikon d3s is amazing, with *less* noise than tri-x (iso
400) or any of the high speed colour films had grain. iso 1600 is
child's play these days. 

> Fast shutter speed. Latter needed to stop fast action. 

high end dslrs (nikon d3s) top out at 1/8000th, while low end dslrs
(nikon d40) go up to 1/4000th. my old film slrs (manual everything, not
that it matters) topped out at 1/1000th. recent film slrs (nikon f5,
f6) were 1/8000th, so it's really the same.

> >> I can take fotos in low light levels with my digital camera, for which I'd
> >> need "fast" film, yes.  In situations where flash is forbidden(museums,
> >> shooting through glass, for instance),
> > 
> > flash may be forbidden in museums, but it's certainly not forbidden
> > through glass.
>
>   Things I want to document in museums are usually behind glass.

that falls under the museum ban. 

> > it just requires having the flash off to the side to
> > avoid reflections, and possibly a polarizer as well, depending on the
> > situation.
>
>   Not when flash is forbidden

true, but shooting flash through glass is not something limited to just
museums.

> >> however, the digital camera doesn't
> >> always win, because IT decides what would be the shutter speed and lens
> >> opening I could set on a film SLR. No fine control.  
> > 
> > nonsense. set the camera to manual or override what it picks.
>
>   That's what I did with my Fujica.  I could also set shutter speed and
> focal length manually-- like everything else on that camera -- to do other
> things the digital camera won't allow.  The digital camera has no manual
> overrides.  There are things I can do with it, but not that. 

*your* digital camera may not, but most digital cameras do, including
point & shoots. my old nikon coolpix did, and i shot quite a few action
shots with it.

> > or just use a digital slr, where you can set it to whatever you want.
> > you do realize that there are digital slrs, do you not? 
> 
> I know that. I also know they are bigger and considerably more expensive.

nope. as i pointed out in another post, they're about the same size as
film slrs and even smaller in some cases. there's also no need to carry
dozens of rolls of film either, making the entire package smaller, even
if the camera were slightly larger.

digital slrs are also not considerably more expensive. dslrs today
start around $400 or thereabouts, and if you are going to compare that
price to a film slr from the 1980s, don't forget to adjust it for
inflation. since the film cost is $0, any difference would pay for
itself in a fairly short time, especially if you shoot a lot of photos
(which people with digital cameras tend to do).

> I gave up the features I had to for size, weight, and other digital
> advantages. This doesn't mean I don't miss the things I can no longer do
> from time to time.  If I missed them more often I might investigate digital
> SLRs, but I remain dubious about how long one has to wait for a digital
> camera to decide to actually take the shot.

again, that's only because you picked a camera with those limitations. 

> > maybe you don't, because you keep comparing compact point & shoots with
> > film slrs, thinking it's a digital versus film comparison. why not
> > compare film slrs with digital slrs, or film point & shoots with
> > digital point & shoots?
>
>       I also had a film point and shoot that I used for a while.  I didn't
> have to wait as long for that as I do for my handy digital. 

did it do as much? autofocus, autoexposure, autowind and produce a
sample image in a fraction of a second? if you disable all that stuff,
the speed difference is negligible.

> > remember the instamatic 110 film cameras? you can't set the shutter
> > speed or lens aperture on those either.
> 
>     My point and shoot film camera was several steps above an Instamatic.

most point and shoot film cameras didn't have much by way of manual
adjustments. 

one of the classic compact film cameras, the olympus xa, did not have a
manual mode or manual override, other than adjusting the iso to be
different than what the film actually was.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympus_XA>

the point is that it's not a film versus digital argument, it's a low
end camera versus not so low end.

> >> I use only the pocketable digital camera now; the SLR, its extra long lens,
> >> and multiple rolls of film are more than I can manage to carry around any
> >> more, and the former has many advantages of convenience. It can do many
> >> things the SLR and film could not, but not all of the things it could.
> > 
> > a point and shoot digicam is more portable than an slr, especially one
> > with multiple lenses, but it also comes with many limitations,
> > including operational speed (but not always), lower quality optics and
> > noisier images that limit how well it works in low light. different
> > tools for different jobs.
> 
> And in the end, the person behind the camera is often the real determiner
> of foto quality, as we both know 8-). 

agreed.

> My younger sister has a newer,
> somewhat fancier model of the same digital camera I use, and can't
> understand why my results are so much better than hers.

just imagine what they might be if you had a nikon d3s with several of
their recent lenses. :)

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For sale... jeffob2008 <jeffobourdeau@gmail.com> - 2011-03-01 12:08 -0800
  Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-01 12:21 -0500
  Re: For sale... jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) - 2011-03-02 16:53 +1300
    Re: For sale... Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2011-03-02 07:44 -0500
      Re: For sale... "Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <gsm@mendelson.com> - 2011-03-02 12:54 +0000
        Re: For sale... Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2011-03-02 09:03 -0500
          Re: For sale... Kurt Ullman <kurtullman@yahoo.com> - 2011-03-02 09:52 -0500
            Re: For sale... Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2011-03-02 10:31 -0500
              Re: For sale... Bill who putters <b2forewagner@snip.net> - 2011-03-02 18:13 -0500
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                Re: For sale... Kurt Ullman <kurtullman@yahoo.com> - 2011-03-02 19:52 -0500
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-03 12:01 +1100
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-02 17:58 -0800
                Re: For sale... Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2011-03-02 23:12 -0500
                Re: For sale... Kurt Ullman <kurtullman@yahoo.com> - 2011-03-03 08:20 -0500
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-02 17:53 -0800
                Re: For sale... Kurt Ullman <kurtullman@yahoo.com> - 2011-03-03 08:25 -0500
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-03 10:15 -0800
            Re: For sale... Tim Streater <timstreater@waitrose.com> - 2011-03-02 15:38 +0000
              Re: For sale... shiva das <shiv@nataraja.invalid> - 2011-03-02 11:14 -0500
                Re: For sale... Tim Streater <timstreater@waitrose.com> - 2011-03-02 16:48 +0000
            Re: For sale... Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2011-03-03 00:06 +0000
              Re: For sale... Kurt Ullman <kurtullman@yahoo.com> - 2011-03-02 19:37 -0500
                Re: For sale... Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2011-03-03 08:23 -0500
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-04 00:52 +1100
                Re: For sale... John McWilliams <jpmcw@comcast.net> - 2011-03-06 21:46 -0800
              Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-02 16:39 -0800
                Re: For sale... AV3 <arvimide@earthlink.net> - 2011-03-02 20:45 -0500
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-02 18:04 -0800
                Re: For sale... Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2011-03-03 02:37 +0000
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-02 18:51 -0800
                Re: For sale... Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2011-03-03 18:34 +0000
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-04 13:24 -0800
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-03 18:45 +1100
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-03 03:15 -0800
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-04 00:38 +1100
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-03 10:16 -0800
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-04 04:58 +1100
                Re: For sale... Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2011-03-03 08:25 -0500
                Re: For sale... AV3 <arvimide@earthlink.net> - 2011-03-03 10:32 -0500
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-03 18:42 +1100
                Re: For sale... AV3 <arvimide@earthlink.net> - 2011-03-03 10:51 -0500
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-04 04:56 +1100
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-03 12:04 -0800
                Re: For sale... Tim Streater <timstreater@waitrose.com> - 2011-03-03 11:35 +0000
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-03 03:43 -0800
                Re: For sale... Tim Streater <timstreater@waitrose.com> - 2011-03-03 12:27 +0000
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-03 04:55 -0800
                Re: For sale... Tim Streater <timstreater@waitrose.com> - 2011-03-03 14:38 +0000
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-03 10:16 -0800
                Re: For sale... Tim Streater <timstreater@waitrose.com> - 2011-03-03 16:33 +0000
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-03 11:57 -0800
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-04 04:40 +1100
                Re: For sale... Tim Streater <timstreater@waitrose.com> - 2011-03-03 17:52 +0000
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-03 12:01 -0800
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-04 05:50 +1100
                Re: For sale... Jim Gibson <jimsgibson@gmail.com> - 2011-03-03 13:39 -0800
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-04 16:37 +1100
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-04 00:39 +1100
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-03 10:16 -0800
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-04 05:00 +1100
                Re: For sale... AV3 <arvimide@earthlink.net> - 2011-03-03 10:54 -0500
                Re: For sale... Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2011-03-03 14:03 -0500
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-04 13:24 -0800
                Re: For sale... Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2011-03-03 02:37 +0000
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-02 18:53 -0800
                Re: For sale... Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2011-03-03 18:34 +0000
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-04 13:24 -0800
              Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-03 11:51 +1100
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-02 17:32 -0800
                Re: For sale... Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2011-03-02 23:18 -0500
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-03 18:15 +1100
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-03 03:12 -0800
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-04 00:36 +1100
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-03 10:22 -0800
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-04 05:38 +1100
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-04 13:24 -0800
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-05 11:56 +1100
                Re: For sale... Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2011-03-05 00:17 -0500
                Re: For sale... Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2011-03-05 14:08 +0000
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-05 16:25 -0800
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-06 09:34 +1100
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-06 19:39 -0800
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-07 12:53 +1100
                Re: For sale... Tim Streater <timstreater@waitrose.com> - 2011-03-07 10:29 +0000
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-05 16:25 -0800
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-06 10:09 +1100
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-05 16:25 -0800
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-06 10:06 +1100
                Re: For sale... Larry Gusaas <larry.gusaas@gmail.com> - 2011-03-05 18:22 -0600
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-06 19:39 -0800
                Re: For sale... Larry Gusaas <larry.gusaas@gmail.com> - 2011-03-06 19:11 -0600
                Re: For sale... Tim Streater <timstreater@waitrose.com> - 2011-03-07 10:27 +0000
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-07 17:27 -0800
                Re: For sale... Tim Streater <timstreater@waitrose.com> - 2011-03-07 23:51 +0000
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-07 19:08 -0800
                Re: For sale... Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2011-03-08 02:03 +0000
                Re: For sale... Tim Streater <timstreater@waitrose.com> - 2011-03-08 10:38 +0000
                Re: For sale... "Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <gsm@mendelson.com> - 2011-03-08 12:19 +0000
                Re: For sale... Tim Streater <timstreater@waitrose.com> - 2011-03-08 12:51 +0000
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-09 08:23 -0800
                Re: For sale... "Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <gsm@mendelson.com> - 2011-03-09 13:34 +0000
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-09 09:55 -0800
                Re: For sale... Tim Streater <timstreater@waitrose.com> - 2011-03-09 15:13 +0000
                Re: For sale... Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2011-03-09 16:04 +0000
                Re: For sale... "Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <gsm@mendelson.com> - 2011-03-09 13:44 +0000
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-09 09:55 -0800
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-09 08:23 -0800
                Re: For sale... "Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <gsm@mendelson.com> - 2011-03-09 14:04 +0000
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-09 09:55 -0800
                Re: For sale... "Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <gsm@mendelson.com> - 2011-03-09 19:34 +0000
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-09 15:20 -0800
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-07 17:27 -0800
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-07 12:56 +1100
                Re: For sale... Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2011-03-07 06:34 +0000
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-07 17:27 -0800
                Re: For sale... John McWilliams <jpmcw@comcast.net> - 2011-03-07 17:39 -0800
                Re: For sale... Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2011-03-08 20:31 +0000
                Re: For sale... Larry Gusaas <larry.gusaas@gmail.com> - 2011-03-07 22:23 -0600
                Re: For sale... Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2011-03-08 20:31 +0000
                Re: For sale... Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2011-03-03 13:22 -0500
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-04 06:06 +1100
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-04 13:24 -0800
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-05 11:35 +1100
                Re: For sale... Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2011-03-05 09:54 -0500
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-06 15:26 +1100
                Re: For sale... Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2011-03-03 18:34 +0000
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-04 13:24 -0800
                Re: For sale... Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2011-03-04 19:12 +0000
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-04 15:08 -0800
                Re: For sale... Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2011-03-05 03:36 +0000
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-05 15:41 +1100
                Re: For sale... Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2011-03-05 14:08 +0000
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-06 09:29 +1100
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-05 16:25 -0800
                Re: For sale... Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2011-03-06 03:02 +0000
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-06 14:59 +1100
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-05 11:36 +1100
                Re: For sale... Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2011-03-03 02:37 +0000
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-03 18:55 +1100
                Re: For sale... Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2011-03-03 13:56 -0500
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-04 06:26 +1100
        Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-02 07:40 -0800
        Re: For sale... Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2011-03-02 12:59 -0500
          Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-02 10:05 -0800
      Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-02 07:22 -0800
        Re: For sale... Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2011-03-02 10:34 -0500
      Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-03 04:44 +1100
        Re: For sale... Steve Fenwick <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-02 10:17 -0800
          Re: For sale... Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2011-03-02 13:24 -0500
          Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-03 08:34 +1100
            Re: For sale... Steve Fenwick <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-02 16:36 -0800
              Re: For sale... Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2011-03-03 08:41 -0500
          Re: For sale... Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2011-03-03 00:29 +0000
            Re: For sale... Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2011-03-03 08:47 -0500
        Re: For sale... Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2011-03-02 15:53 -0500
          Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-03 08:56 +1100

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