Re: For sale...

From	nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>
Newsgroups	comp.sys.mac.apps
Subject	Re: For sale...
Date	2011-03-03 10:22 -0800
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<030320111022404708%nospam@nospam.invalid> (permalink)
References	(2 earlier) <dorayme-65576A.11514603032011@hello.network> <020320111732265419%nospam@nospam.invalid> <dorayme-C17FAA.18154203032011@hello.network> <030320110312589455%nospam@nospam.invalid> <dorayme-D37754.00361204032011@hello.network>

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In article <dorayme-D37754.00361204032011@hello.network>, dorayme
<dorayme@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

> > > > > Film cameras were easier to use, quicker to focus and set for 
> > > > > stops and shutter speeds in all sorts of conditions.
> > > > 
> > > > nope. digital is faster in every way. a nikon d3s can shoot 11 fps. it
> > > > can also track moving subjects across the frame while maintaining
> > > > focus, using its 51 point autofocus system. no film camera can do that.
> > > > it can also shoot thousands of photos on a single card, without the
> > > > need to stop to change rolls of film.
> > > 
> > > Nope. These fancy pants things you are plucking out of the techno 
> > > babble world are not the main game. 
> > 
> > you said film cameras were easier to use, quicker to focus and set
> > stops and shutter speeds. they're not. 
> 
> Yes, they are. If that is the bald contextless way you want to 
> play this game.

what game? you made a statement and it's wrong. 

> > > The main game for 
> > > photographers who go out to take a nice shot is to see something 
> > > they want to photograph, mostly not fast moving but maybe a 
> > > little, to remove the lens cap and take one shot, maybe three to 
> > > bracket, maybe lots more as things change a little or not. 
> > 
> > all of which can be done with a digital camera, often more quickly than
> > with film. there have been a lot of advancements in the last 10-20
> > years.
> 
> Maybe with some of the most expensive cameras with very skilful 
> operators. Generally you are just plain wrong.

nope. even entry level slrs can outdo what film cameras did, and
because the cameras are so much more sophisticated, even newbies get
much better results than they could ever do with film. plus, they can
check the results moments later and fix any mistakes, something that
can't be done with film (other than polaroid which wasn't all that
great quality, although it was used for proofing).

> > > With the average manual good quality 35mm camera, you take the 
> > > lens cap off, you see your whole frame, you see the shutter speed 
> > > and the f-stop and you have proper controls for human hands for 
> > > these two simple functions, a ring that turns for the f-stop, and 
> > > often a lever that satisfyingly levers up and down; not ideal 
> > > techno bullshit robot inhuman fingers that have to have the 
> > > camera itself in full view while you grope around with one of a 
> > > million settings. 
> > 
> > yep, same with digital. 
> 
> Nope, not with digital.

yep, with digital.

> > with a digital slr, you hold it up to your eye,
> > just like a film slr, adjust whatever you want
> 
> You mean fiddle about with tiny controls, try to remember the 
> million things that all the menus do and how to bring them up and 
> so on while the poor group in front of you grow old and become 
> skeletons before your eyes (if you out live them that is!). 

what tiny controls? the wheel on the back of a canon dslr is large and
the control wheels on nikon slrs are a perfect size for one's fingers.
the menus are not required, and they're generally very easy to navigate
when needed.

i can think of a couple of film cameras which had tiny buttons (pentax
me-super being one) and generally a pain to use. the top of the line
nikon f5 film slr had custom functions that were accessed by *number*,
which you either had to memorize them or carry a cheat sheet, just to
configure the camera! 

<http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/hardwares/classics/NikonF5/images/
custom_setting_F5.jpg>

seriously, have you even used a modern dslr? nothing you've said
applies. nothing.

> when I am in rush, I set on auto and click and that does me. I 
> have lower standards for digital under time pressure. 

yes, i can clearly see you have lower standards.

> > > > that would be like listening to a cd, but adding pops and clicks to
> > > > mimic what a vinyl record is like. maybe even stopping every 20 minutes
> > > > or so, because that's how much you could get on one side of a record.
> > > 
> > > Nope again. And even wronger. You are here choosing to add 
> > > unwanted inartistic features, faults even in the vinyl. 
> > 
> > wrong. digital has higher resolution, greater dynamic range and more
> > accurate colour than film did. this is something that can be
> > objectively measured.
> 
> It is no good switching the topic suddenly. You are missing the 
> point.

i'm not switching the topic at all. you said film is better and it
isn't. that's easily *measured*. if you want things to be film-like,
then it's a step *backwards*. it's just like the people who think vinyl
records sound better. it's actually the distortion they like, which can
be added back to cd quality audio.

> > if you want to 'mimic film', then you are downgrading the potential
> > quality that is available with digital.
> 
> You are missing the point. No one has said to mimic all the bad 
> features as well as the good. Or that digital does not have 
> fabulous pluses. 

to make an image 'film like' means lowering the quality, like adding
noise (grain) or cranking the colour saturation to make it look like
velvia did. 

digital is more accurate and has a wider dynamic range, so you can
always reduce it to be like film.

> > you still set f/stops and shutter speeds, just like with film, but the
> > results are better with digital.
> 
> You are missing the point about speed and ease of operation. I 
> suspect you have no idea really working with manual film cameras 
> and how easy and fast they were.

you'd be wrong. i have two manual film cameras collecting dust. they're
neither faster nor easier to use. since they're completely manual, one
must not only focus but also set the exposure, tasks which are done for
you in any modern camera, digital or film. that means it's *slower*. 

any digital slr can be set to fully manual, including disabling the
autofocus, so it can be just as slow to use as a camera made in the
1970s, back when having an exposure meter built into the camera was an
optional extra (rather than carry a separate one). if you really want
to talk about slow, having to meter with a handheld meter and then set
the exposure on the camera is a *lot* slower.

> > > > however, old mechanical cameras do have a
> > > > certain charm, even if they're entirely obsolete.
> 
> This is an ignorant remark indeed. They are not *entirely* 
> obsolete, there are talented and gifted workers still using them.

obsolete doesn't mean there aren't people still using film. there are
people still using view cameras and 8x10 sheet film too, but that is
also obsolete. good luck even finding sheet film these days.

some people still use 68k macs and other old computers. those are also
obsolete. there are even web sites on how to keep old computers
running. obsolete does not mean zero users.

> > > They are not entirely obsolete and in combination with bromides 
> > > they can do things digital cannot easily do.
> > 
> > such as what? 
> 
> Such as most of the pictures hanging on my walls.

digital can easily make photos to hang on walls. there are these things
called printers, you may have heard of them.

was there a special effect or something of that nature in those prints
that you think can't be done with digital?

> > anything you can do in a darkroom can be done in
> > photoshop much easier, faster and more consistently.
> 
> Not so if you are just going to play a bald game of contextless 
> assertion. It is really stupid to be mentioning PS like this as 
> if it is the equivalent of the darkroom. 

photoshop is much more than any darkroom could ever do. it's also
faster, especially with today's computers.

> perhaps you simply don't 
> realise that there is another huge operation, it is called 
> printing the thing. PS does not print. And printing is a very big 
> deal indeed.

photoshop doesn't print?? that's news to millions and millions of
photoshop users, worldwide.

have you ever looked in the file menu? see where it says print? what do
you think that might do?

not only can photoshop print, but it handles colour management,
cropping, registration marks and other aspects of printing, all in a
nice preview window. it can also proof a print, without needing to
waste paper and ink.

however, most people rarely print these days, and those who do
typically make 4x6 prints (the most popular size). that's why there are
a variety of photo printers just for the 4x6 size (i have one, it's
very handy). 

these days, people upload to flickr, smugmug, facebook, etc. instead of
printing. more importantly, printing has nothing whatsoever with film
or digital, speaking of changing the topic.

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                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-02 18:51 -0800
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                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-03 03:15 -0800
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                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-03 10:16 -0800
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                Re: For sale... AV3 <arvimide@earthlink.net> - 2011-03-03 10:32 -0500
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                Re: For sale... AV3 <arvimide@earthlink.net> - 2011-03-03 10:51 -0500
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-04 04:56 +1100
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-03 12:04 -0800
                Re: For sale... Tim Streater <timstreater@waitrose.com> - 2011-03-03 11:35 +0000
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-03 03:43 -0800
                Re: For sale... Tim Streater <timstreater@waitrose.com> - 2011-03-03 12:27 +0000
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-03 04:55 -0800
                Re: For sale... Tim Streater <timstreater@waitrose.com> - 2011-03-03 14:38 +0000
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-03 10:16 -0800
                Re: For sale... Tim Streater <timstreater@waitrose.com> - 2011-03-03 16:33 +0000
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-03 11:57 -0800
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-04 04:40 +1100
                Re: For sale... Tim Streater <timstreater@waitrose.com> - 2011-03-03 17:52 +0000
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-03 12:01 -0800
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-04 05:50 +1100
                Re: For sale... Jim Gibson <jimsgibson@gmail.com> - 2011-03-03 13:39 -0800
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-04 16:37 +1100
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-04 00:39 +1100
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-03 10:16 -0800
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-04 05:00 +1100
                Re: For sale... AV3 <arvimide@earthlink.net> - 2011-03-03 10:54 -0500
                Re: For sale... Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2011-03-03 14:03 -0500
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-04 13:24 -0800
                Re: For sale... Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2011-03-03 02:37 +0000
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-02 18:53 -0800
                Re: For sale... Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2011-03-03 18:34 +0000
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-04 13:24 -0800
              Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-03 11:51 +1100
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-02 17:32 -0800
                Re: For sale... Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2011-03-02 23:18 -0500
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-03 18:15 +1100
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-03 03:12 -0800
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-04 00:36 +1100
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-03 10:22 -0800
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-04 05:38 +1100
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-04 13:24 -0800
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-05 11:56 +1100
                Re: For sale... Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2011-03-05 00:17 -0500
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                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-05 16:25 -0800
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-06 09:34 +1100
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-06 19:39 -0800
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-07 12:53 +1100
                Re: For sale... Tim Streater <timstreater@waitrose.com> - 2011-03-07 10:29 +0000
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-05 16:25 -0800
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-06 10:09 +1100
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-05 16:25 -0800
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-06 10:06 +1100
                Re: For sale... Larry Gusaas <larry.gusaas@gmail.com> - 2011-03-05 18:22 -0600
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-06 19:39 -0800
                Re: For sale... Larry Gusaas <larry.gusaas@gmail.com> - 2011-03-06 19:11 -0600
                Re: For sale... Tim Streater <timstreater@waitrose.com> - 2011-03-07 10:27 +0000
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-07 17:27 -0800
                Re: For sale... Tim Streater <timstreater@waitrose.com> - 2011-03-07 23:51 +0000
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-07 19:08 -0800
                Re: For sale... Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2011-03-08 02:03 +0000
                Re: For sale... Tim Streater <timstreater@waitrose.com> - 2011-03-08 10:38 +0000
                Re: For sale... "Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <gsm@mendelson.com> - 2011-03-08 12:19 +0000
                Re: For sale... Tim Streater <timstreater@waitrose.com> - 2011-03-08 12:51 +0000
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-09 08:23 -0800
                Re: For sale... "Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <gsm@mendelson.com> - 2011-03-09 13:34 +0000
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-09 09:55 -0800
                Re: For sale... Tim Streater <timstreater@waitrose.com> - 2011-03-09 15:13 +0000
                Re: For sale... Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2011-03-09 16:04 +0000
                Re: For sale... "Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <gsm@mendelson.com> - 2011-03-09 13:44 +0000
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-09 09:55 -0800
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-09 08:23 -0800
                Re: For sale... "Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <gsm@mendelson.com> - 2011-03-09 14:04 +0000
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-09 09:55 -0800
                Re: For sale... "Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <gsm@mendelson.com> - 2011-03-09 19:34 +0000
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-09 15:20 -0800
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-07 17:27 -0800
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-07 12:56 +1100
                Re: For sale... Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2011-03-07 06:34 +0000
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-07 17:27 -0800
                Re: For sale... John McWilliams <jpmcw@comcast.net> - 2011-03-07 17:39 -0800
                Re: For sale... Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2011-03-08 20:31 +0000
                Re: For sale... Larry Gusaas <larry.gusaas@gmail.com> - 2011-03-07 22:23 -0600
                Re: For sale... Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2011-03-08 20:31 +0000
                Re: For sale... Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2011-03-03 13:22 -0500
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-04 06:06 +1100
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-04 13:24 -0800
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-05 11:35 +1100
                Re: For sale... Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2011-03-05 09:54 -0500
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-06 15:26 +1100
                Re: For sale... Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2011-03-03 18:34 +0000
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-04 13:24 -0800
                Re: For sale... Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2011-03-04 19:12 +0000
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-04 15:08 -0800
                Re: For sale... Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2011-03-05 03:36 +0000
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-05 15:41 +1100
                Re: For sale... Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2011-03-05 14:08 +0000
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-06 09:29 +1100
                Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-05 16:25 -0800
                Re: For sale... Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2011-03-06 03:02 +0000
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-06 14:59 +1100
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-05 11:36 +1100
                Re: For sale... Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2011-03-03 02:37 +0000
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-03 18:55 +1100
                Re: For sale... Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2011-03-03 13:56 -0500
                Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-04 06:26 +1100
        Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-02 07:40 -0800
        Re: For sale... Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2011-03-02 12:59 -0500
          Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-02 10:05 -0800
      Re: For sale... nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-02 07:22 -0800
        Re: For sale... Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2011-03-02 10:34 -0500
      Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-03 04:44 +1100
        Re: For sale... Steve Fenwick <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-02 10:17 -0800
          Re: For sale... Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2011-03-02 13:24 -0500
          Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-03 08:34 +1100
            Re: For sale... Steve Fenwick <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-03-02 16:36 -0800
              Re: For sale... Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2011-03-03 08:41 -0500
          Re: For sale... Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2011-03-03 00:29 +0000
            Re: For sale... Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2011-03-03 08:47 -0500
        Re: For sale... Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2011-03-02 15:53 -0500
          Re: For sale... dorayme <dorayme@optusnet.com.au> - 2011-03-03 08:56 +1100

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