Groups > comp.os.linux.advocacy > #405778

Re: spreadsheet ergonomics

From	owl <owl@rooftop.invalid>
Newsgroups	comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject	Re: spreadsheet ergonomics
Date	2017-04-03 19:38 +0000
Organization	O.W.L.
Message-ID	<hjguc8892a.a@rooftop.invalid> (permalink)
References	(8 earlier) <D506E669.9C611%usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> <hvjjz003.gah@rooftop.invalid> <D507005D.9C637%usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> <z9b003gaew.hy@rooftop.invalid> <D507DA2D.9C70F%usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>

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Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
> On 4/2/17, 9:12 PM, in article z9b003gaew.hy@rooftop.invalid, "owl"
> <owl@rooftop.invalid> wrote:
> 
> ...
>> 
>> You don't have to turn it on at all.  That's just to have the
>> data in one table update automatically from changes in another
>> table.  If you don't need that, the just move your mouse to
>> the target table and type "@" or enter some data into any cell.
>> The external data will then be automatically calculated.
> 
> But you cannot have BOTH editing of tables and auto-updating.

False.  You *can* edit while auto-updating is goin on, but keystrokes
get mixed with the "@" that is sent.  You could get around that by
throttling the update to a slower rate than the 1-second loop I have
now. 


> And to go back
> and forth you have to change settings. This is what I am talking about when
> I note it is kludgy.
> 

You don't have to go back and forth.



>>> I mean, really, tables should just have the data flow. For older
>>> spreadsheets, like back in the Apple IIe days, you had to say update -- but
>>> now it just happens.
>> 
>> It does update automatically, if you're *in* that sheet.
> 
> But only in that table, right?
> 

Are we going to go around in circles now?  The whole point of the
looping update is to update other sheets to reflect edits in the
current sheet.



>> And remember, this is something that you said is not even possible with
>> Numbers -- updating a sheet with data from a completely separate file.
> 
> Well, this whole thing is a work around to try to emulate what Numbers does
> easily... have multiple tables all on one sheet


And the question is why are you doing that anyway when you can just use
different sections of one sheet for the work? 


> Think of it this way, if you were sent a file by someone and did not really
> know what it did, would YOU be willing to change its permissions and run it?
> 
> I suspect not... at least not anywhere other than in a safe environment
> where if it wiped out the machine (or VM) it would not matter to you.
> 

Would you use that same security protocol with a Numbers file?
At least this is open-source (even the spreadsheet files themselves are
open-source)  and you can examine exactly what it does.  Who knows what
a Numbers file is doing, or even what Numbers is doing, for that matter.



>>>> The user needn't notice that it's multiple files.
>>>> 
>>> Even the user making it?
>> 
>> Picture this as the application that the user runs to make the file.
>> In this case it's just operating on one that's already built, but
>> the principal is the same.
> 
> And if the user wants another table or to edit things?


Then he creates one or edits things.


> It again goes back to
> having a computer as a single-device tool or a general-purpose tool.
> 
> Do not get me wrong, with what you are doing for folks who are willing to
> focus a whole lot on the tool they can reasonably easily switch from what
> single task (or fairly limited set of tasks) the computer is doing to
> another. But do you see where this is not how most people work?

No.


>>> If so that is very different than what I am
>>> picturing. Even for the end user I think they likely would if you did not
>>> have embedded xterms in other windows and the like. Which, sure, you can do.
>>> Maybe we found a reason for it ... to get around limitations of sc. :)
>>> 
>> 
>> Let me know when Numbers can handle a similar task of linking separate
>> files with automatic updates.
> 
> It has the tables in one file...

So put them all on one sheet.  You have 22 million cells on a sheet.
Use some of those.

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Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-03-31 19:08 -0700
  Re: spreadsheet ergonomics owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2017-04-01 05:22 +0000
    Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-03-31 22:50 -0700
      Re: spreadsheet ergonomics owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2017-04-01 09:23 +0000
        Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-01 09:50 -0700
          Re: spreadsheet ergonomics owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2017-04-02 04:45 +0000
            Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-01 23:34 -0700
              Re: spreadsheet ergonomics owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2017-04-02 08:58 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-02 08:59 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2017-04-03 00:14 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-02 17:33 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2017-04-03 01:46 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-02 19:24 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2017-04-03 04:53 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-03 10:20 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2017-04-03 19:40 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-03 14:17 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2017-04-03 21:24 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-03 14:32 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2017-04-04 02:15 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-03 19:24 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2017-04-04 02:39 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-03 20:35 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2017-04-04 04:15 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-03 21:31 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2017-04-04 05:01 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-04 08:51 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-04 13:56 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2017-04-04 21:12 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-04 14:53 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2017-04-04 22:42 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-04 18:08 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2017-04-05 01:49 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-04 18:57 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2017-04-05 02:15 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-04 19:46 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-04 20:51 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2017-04-05 04:03 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-03 10:53 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2017-04-03 19:38 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-03 13:01 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2017-04-03 20:54 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-03 14:16 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2017-04-04 02:30 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-03 20:26 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2017-04-04 04:45 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-04 09:29 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2017-04-04 20:49 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-04 14:20 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2017-04-04 22:38 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-04 18:05 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2017-04-05 01:14 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-04 18:41 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2017-04-05 02:05 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-04 19:27 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2017-04-05 03:59 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-04 21:32 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2017-04-05 05:23 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-05 08:30 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-04 20:30 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2017-04-05 04:14 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-04 21:33 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2017-04-05 05:08 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-05 08:23 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2017-04-05 11:55 -0400
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-05 09:03 -0700
    Re: spreadsheet ergonomics DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2017-04-01 11:47 -0400
      Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2017-04-01 11:21 -0500
        Re: spreadsheet ergonomics DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2017-04-02 10:44 -0400
          Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2017-04-02 15:02 -0500
            Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-02 13:35 -0700
              Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2017-04-02 15:39 -0500
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-02 13:52 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2017-04-03 07:49 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics William Poaster <wp@dev.null> - 2017-04-02 22:42 +0100
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Joe <Negrojoe@cottonpickers.edu> - 2017-04-02 21:57 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-02 15:46 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Joe <Negrojoe@cottonpickers.edu> - 2017-04-02 23:00 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-02 16:10 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2017-04-03 01:24 +0200
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics flatfish+++ <flatfish@cutey.com> - 2017-04-02 19:31 -0400
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-02 16:40 -0700
                Snit digest 386 / 2017-04-03 Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2017-04-03 07:56 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2017-04-03 09:47 +0200
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics flatfish+++ <flatfish@cutey.com> - 2017-04-03 12:17 -0400
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-03 10:57 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2017-04-03 11:34 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-02 16:34 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2017-04-02 19:49 -0500
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-02 18:00 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2017-04-02 21:36 -0500
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-02 19:45 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2017-04-03 08:09 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2017-04-03 10:43 -0500
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-03 11:05 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2017-04-03 21:08 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2017-04-03 16:14 -0500
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-03 14:18 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2017-04-03 21:29 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-03 14:33 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2017-04-03 22:09 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-03 15:14 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2017-04-03 22:24 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-03 18:37 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2017-04-04 06:28 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-04 09:03 -0700
                Snit digest 387 / 2017-04-05 Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2017-04-05 08:21 +0000
                Re: Snit digest 387 / 2017-04-05 Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-05 08:35 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2017-04-03 19:36 -0400
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2017-04-04 06:29 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-04 09:30 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2017-04-04 12:06 -0500
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-04 10:45 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2017-04-05 07:57 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-05 08:59 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-03 18:00 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-03 14:26 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2017-04-03 21:39 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-03 15:06 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2017-04-03 22:17 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-03 15:34 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Joe <Negrojoe@cottonpickers.edu> - 2017-04-03 23:07 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-03 18:10 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2017-04-03 21:00 -0500
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-03 19:06 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2017-04-03 08:02 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-03 11:48 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2017-04-03 21:59 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-03 15:09 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Sandman <mr@sandman.net> - 2017-04-03 22:19 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2017-04-04 07:20 -0500
            Re: spreadsheet ergonomics DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2017-04-03 19:48 -0400
              Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2017-04-03 21:02 -0500
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2017-04-04 10:28 -0400
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2017-04-04 16:50 +0200
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2017-04-04 10:01 -0500
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2017-04-04 11:37 -0400
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Silver-Tongued Heel <sl@im.er> - 2017-04-04 11:56 -0400
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-04 08:56 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2017-04-04 11:01 -0500
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics William Poaster <wp@dev.null> - 2017-04-04 17:11 +0100
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-04 09:34 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2017-04-04 12:09 -0500
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-04 10:19 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics William Poaster <wp@dev.null> - 2017-04-04 23:11 +0100
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-04 15:19 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2017-04-05 00:34 +0200
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Silver-Tongued Heel <sl@im.er> - 2017-04-04 18:40 -0400
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2017-04-05 06:24 -0500
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Silver-Tongued Heel <sl@im.er> - 2017-04-05 08:15 -0400
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-05 09:29 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-05 09:29 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2017-04-04 22:03 -0400
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-04 19:34 -0700
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2017-04-04 22:48 -0500
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-04 20:53 -0700
              Re: spreadsheet ergonomics owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2017-04-04 02:49 +0000
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2017-04-03 23:11 -0400
                Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-03 20:37 -0700
      Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2017-04-01 09:56 -0700
        Re: spreadsheet ergonomics Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2017-04-01 10:12 -0700
      Re: spreadsheet ergonomics owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2017-04-02 05:01 +0000

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