Re: Are Computer able to think?

From	Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: Are Computer able to think?
Date	2013-07-13 02:52 +0200
Organization	1&1 Internet AG
Message-ID	<krq8cq$ctv$1@online.de> (permalink)
References	<7407f668-e6b6-4176-bb9f-af9695fc75b4@googlegroups.com>

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visualforth@rocketmail.com wrote:

> Today I had a revelation, based on my experience with working with Windows
> calls all the week.
> 
> Are Computer(s) able to think? I like to read your opinion.
> 
> My opinion is: computers are not able to think.

I think your conclusion is misleading, as you restrict computers essentially 
to hardware+development system, and exclude any application software.  Yes, 
when we use a real or virtual machine to implement our algorithm, we have a 
computer that is not able to think.

If you ask whether humans are able to think, and restrict what a human is to 
its genome and the ribosom interpreter, which converts genes into proteines, 
then, on that level, a human certainly can't think.  All it can do is create 
proteines based on very deliberate and specific code sequences in the 
genome.  This system is an information processing system (it takes a 
bitstream from the DNA and fabs complicated molecules out of "lego bricks", 
the amino acids).

If we look at how our cells are made, all silicon manufacturing technology 
we have is incredibly crude.  Our cells construct things out of molecules, 
i.e. every single atom is in the place it needs to be.

Thinking on top of that is a very high-level process.  It is very likely 
also implemented in a pretty inefficient way, because it's all implemented 
by evolution, and many organisms get along quite well without thinking a lot 
(humans included).

It is also very obvious that we have very little insight in how we think 
ourselves.  The "designer" of our brain forgot to add full self-
introspection; there is just some conscience on a very high level.  This is 
inevitable, as for analyzing the amount of information that flows through 
our brain would require a much larger brain.  We have the same problem with 
computer hardware - if you want to analyze what's going on in some hardware 
in real-time, the analyzer is going to be much bigger than the thing you 
analyze.  If you do self-analyzing, you do that by adding trigger points and 
you let most of the operations process unanalyzed.

The inability to explain how we think is very obvious when you look at the 
struggles with Go programs.  Go masters have been an awful lot better than 
Go programs for quite a while, and the recent progress was done with a 
technique that does not resemble anything a Go master would tell you when 
you ask about his reasoning (the reasoning usually is that a bad move looks 
messy and ugly, and a good move has aestetic qualities).  The resulting 
programs still don't play like a human player, but it's a lot closer than it 
used to be.

My suspicion is that Go players use their image processing cortex to play 
the game.  This part has a tremendous capability of doing computations, but 
they all are done unconcious.  The result of this computation the concious 
part of our brain gets are triggers like recognized faces or objects, and 
qualities like "this looks good/bad/ugly".  And it has a relatively high-
datarate path to our memory.

So my conclusion is: We will be able to program thinking computers once we 
finally understood how thinking works.  So far, we are still quite stupid 
about that.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://bernd-paysan.de/

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Are Computer able to think? visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-07-12 06:18 -0700
  Re: Are Computer able to think? Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-07-12 07:42 -0700
  Re: Are Computer able to think? Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-12 12:33 -0700
    Re: Are Computer able to think? Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-12 12:46 -0700
      Re: Are Computer able to think? Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-07-12 14:28 -0700
        Re: Are Computer able to think? Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-12 14:50 -0700
          Re: Are Computer able to think? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-07-18 11:36 +0000
            Re: Are Computer able to think? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-07-18 07:31 -0500
              Re: Are Computer able to think? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-07-18 23:41 +0200
  Re: Are Computer able to think? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-07-13 02:52 +0200
    Re: Are Computer able to think? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-07-12 20:06 -0700
      Re: Are Computer able to think? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-07-13 14:34 +0200
        Re: Are Computer able to think? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-07-13 19:54 -0700
          Re: Are Computer able to think? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-07-14 11:32 +0000
            Re: Are Computer able to think? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-14 11:46 -0700
          Re: Are Computer able to think? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-07-14 21:57 -0700
    Re: Are Computer able to think? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-07-12 20:44 -0700
      Re: Are Computer able to think? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-07-13 14:37 +0200
  Re: Are Computer able to think? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-07-12 20:08 -0700
  Re: Are Computer able to think? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-07-13 01:44 -0500
    Re: Are Computer able to think? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2013-07-13 22:25 +0200
  Re: Are Computer able to think? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-07-13 06:15 -0400
    Re: Are Computer able to think? visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-07-13 11:31 -0700
      Re: Are Computer able to think? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-07-13 19:31 -0400
        Re: Are Computer able to think? visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-07-13 18:17 -0700
          Re: Are Computer able to think? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-07-14 16:11 -0400
            Re: Are Computer able to think? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-14 14:21 -0700
              Re: Are Computer able to think? visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-07-14 15:03 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-07-14 21:51 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-07-15 00:09 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-15 02:39 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-07-17 04:21 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-07-17 07:31 -1000
                Re: Are Computer able to think? visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-07-17 12:06 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-07-17 23:53 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-18 22:23 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-07-19 00:48 -0700
              Re: Are Computer able to think? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-07-14 18:22 -0400
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-14 15:44 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-07-15 21:00 -0400
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-07-16 03:43 -0500
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-16 23:24 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? The Beez <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2013-07-16 07:24 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2013-07-16 23:41 +0200
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-16 19:16 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? AKK <akk@nospam.org> - 2013-07-17 08:04 +0200
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-16 23:27 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-07-16 20:48 -1000
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2013-07-17 11:51 +0200
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-07-17 04:49 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? The Beez <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2013-07-18 07:15 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-07-18 11:59 -0500
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2013-07-18 21:56 +0200
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-07-18 23:45 +0200
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-07-18 15:16 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-07-18 17:40 -0500
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-07-19 01:08 +0200
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-07-19 02:48 -0500
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-07-19 01:18 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-07-19 03:35 -0500
                Re: Are Computer able to think? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-07-22 09:50 +0000
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-07-18 17:32 -0500
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2013-07-19 19:28 +0200
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-19 10:51 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2013-07-20 00:34 +0200
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-19 23:08 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-07-20 05:49 -0500
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-20 06:21 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-07-20 14:02 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-20 17:02 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-07-21 10:02 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-21 10:07 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Hannu Vuolasaho <hannu.vuolasaho@nospam.tut.fi.invalid> - 2013-07-21 19:23 +0000
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-07-20 10:07 +0200
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-07-19 18:16 -0500
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-07-18 15:09 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-17 10:46 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2013-07-18 00:40 +0200
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-17 21:34 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-07-17 23:55 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-07-18 13:03 -0500
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2013-07-18 22:00 +0200
                Re: Are Computer able to think? The Beez <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2013-07-18 07:21 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-18 11:02 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2013-07-18 22:02 +0200
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-18 21:43 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-07-17 03:29 -0500
              Re: Are Computer able to think? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-07-14 21:44 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-07-15 16:45 +0200
                Re: Are Computer able to think? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-07-15 20:32 -0700
  Re: Are Computer able to think? mentifex@myuw.net - 2013-07-14 11:52 -0700
  Re: Are Computer able to think? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-07-17 05:24 -0700
  Re: Are Computer able to think? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-07-18 11:15 +0000
    Re: Are Computer able to think? Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-07-18 11:33 -0700
  Re: Are Computer able to think? jim@rainbarrel.com - 2013-07-24 20:09 -0700
    Re: Are Computer able to think? m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2013-07-25 00:15 -0700
    Re: Are Computer able to think? Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-07-25 08:38 -0700

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