Re: Are Computer able to think?

From	Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid>
Subject	Re: Are Computer able to think?
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
References	(15 earlier) <fKednX9mNstAg3XMnZ2dnUVZ_jydnZ2d@supernews.com> <51e847cb$0$15878$e4fe514c@news2.news.xs4all.nl> <ks9nmr$41a$2@online.de> <uKKdnfijg8Bm83XMnZ2dnUVZ_iydnZ2d@supernews.com> <ks9si3$8rl$1@online.de>
Message-ID	<hMidnYeM7IKncnXMnZ2dnUVZ_vSdnZ2d@supernews.com> (permalink)
Date	2013-07-19 02:48 -0500

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Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> wrote:
> Andrew Haley wrote:

>> Not really.  Even with reference counting, dynamic memory
>> allocation is problematic in hard real-time systems because of
>> fragmentation.  Garbage collection tracks object liveness and can
>> run concurrently with the real-time system.  It doesn't have to
>> have a stop-the-world compaction phase any more than reference
>> counting does.
> 
> Even concurrent GCs need to stop the system e.g. for a stack scan.

Not necessarily: it depends on how you maintain strong roots.

> But at least not for that long.  Sub-ms is reachable; but if that is
> good enough depends on the hardness of the real-time.  The
> concurrent GCs I know need additional operations for pointer stores
> like marking the touched object as "gray" (needs to be re-scanned),
> which means you need to change ! or have a special pointer variant
> of !.

That's reasonable.

But the point is that reference counting has its own problems.  To
compare one technique avourably against another by ignoring its own
problems is bound to be inaccurate.  If you're up against a hard
real-time deadline you don't do dynamic memory allocation in that
path.  At all.

> I prefer to have my hard real-time code not to do allocation an
> deallocation at all, which is of course the "Forth" solution to the
> problem: Redefine your problem until it goes away.

Exactly.

Andrew.

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Are Computer able to think? visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-07-12 06:18 -0700
  Re: Are Computer able to think? Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-07-12 07:42 -0700
  Re: Are Computer able to think? Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-12 12:33 -0700
    Re: Are Computer able to think? Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-12 12:46 -0700
      Re: Are Computer able to think? Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-07-12 14:28 -0700
        Re: Are Computer able to think? Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-12 14:50 -0700
          Re: Are Computer able to think? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-07-18 11:36 +0000
            Re: Are Computer able to think? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-07-18 07:31 -0500
              Re: Are Computer able to think? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-07-18 23:41 +0200
  Re: Are Computer able to think? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-07-13 02:52 +0200
    Re: Are Computer able to think? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-07-12 20:06 -0700
      Re: Are Computer able to think? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-07-13 14:34 +0200
        Re: Are Computer able to think? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-07-13 19:54 -0700
          Re: Are Computer able to think? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-07-14 11:32 +0000
            Re: Are Computer able to think? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-14 11:46 -0700
          Re: Are Computer able to think? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-07-14 21:57 -0700
    Re: Are Computer able to think? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-07-12 20:44 -0700
      Re: Are Computer able to think? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-07-13 14:37 +0200
  Re: Are Computer able to think? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-07-12 20:08 -0700
  Re: Are Computer able to think? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-07-13 01:44 -0500
    Re: Are Computer able to think? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2013-07-13 22:25 +0200
  Re: Are Computer able to think? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-07-13 06:15 -0400
    Re: Are Computer able to think? visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-07-13 11:31 -0700
      Re: Are Computer able to think? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-07-13 19:31 -0400
        Re: Are Computer able to think? visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-07-13 18:17 -0700
          Re: Are Computer able to think? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-07-14 16:11 -0400
            Re: Are Computer able to think? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-14 14:21 -0700
              Re: Are Computer able to think? visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-07-14 15:03 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-07-14 21:51 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-07-15 00:09 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-15 02:39 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-07-17 04:21 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-07-17 07:31 -1000
                Re: Are Computer able to think? visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-07-17 12:06 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-07-17 23:53 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-18 22:23 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-07-19 00:48 -0700
              Re: Are Computer able to think? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-07-14 18:22 -0400
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-14 15:44 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-07-15 21:00 -0400
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-07-16 03:43 -0500
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-16 23:24 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? The Beez <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2013-07-16 07:24 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2013-07-16 23:41 +0200
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-16 19:16 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? AKK <akk@nospam.org> - 2013-07-17 08:04 +0200
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-16 23:27 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-07-16 20:48 -1000
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2013-07-17 11:51 +0200
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-07-17 04:49 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? The Beez <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2013-07-18 07:15 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-07-18 11:59 -0500
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2013-07-18 21:56 +0200
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-07-18 23:45 +0200
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-07-18 15:16 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-07-18 17:40 -0500
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-07-19 01:08 +0200
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-07-19 02:48 -0500
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-07-19 01:18 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-07-19 03:35 -0500
                Re: Are Computer able to think? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-07-22 09:50 +0000
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-07-18 17:32 -0500
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2013-07-19 19:28 +0200
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-19 10:51 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2013-07-20 00:34 +0200
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-19 23:08 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-07-20 05:49 -0500
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-20 06:21 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-07-20 14:02 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-20 17:02 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-07-21 10:02 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-21 10:07 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Hannu Vuolasaho <hannu.vuolasaho@nospam.tut.fi.invalid> - 2013-07-21 19:23 +0000
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-07-20 10:07 +0200
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-07-19 18:16 -0500
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-07-18 15:09 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-17 10:46 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2013-07-18 00:40 +0200
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-17 21:34 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-07-17 23:55 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-07-18 13:03 -0500
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2013-07-18 22:00 +0200
                Re: Are Computer able to think? The Beez <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2013-07-18 07:21 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-18 11:02 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2013-07-18 22:02 +0200
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-18 21:43 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-07-17 03:29 -0500
              Re: Are Computer able to think? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-07-14 21:44 -0700
                Re: Are Computer able to think? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-07-15 16:45 +0200
                Re: Are Computer able to think? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-07-15 20:32 -0700
  Re: Are Computer able to think? mentifex@myuw.net - 2013-07-14 11:52 -0700
  Re: Are Computer able to think? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-07-17 05:24 -0700
  Re: Are Computer able to think? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-07-18 11:15 +0000
    Re: Are Computer able to think? Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-07-18 11:33 -0700
  Re: Are Computer able to think? jim@rainbarrel.com - 2013-07-24 20:09 -0700
    Re: Are Computer able to think? m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2013-07-25 00:15 -0700
    Re: Are Computer able to think? Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-07-25 08:38 -0700

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