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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #10710
| From | Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201204.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.forth |
| Subject | Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's |
| References | <jl5ape$p6j$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
| Message-ID | <12408228f6d07c2637615d75934557c8@msgid.frell.theremailer.net> (permalink) |
| Date | 2012-04-02 16:39 +0200 |
| Organization | Frell Anonymous Remailer |
"Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> wrote: > "Fritz Wuehler" <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> wrote > in message > news:d658a12bc8a84b4bec2dabd73b133d97@msgid.frell.theremailer.net... > > "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> wrote: > ... > > < ... OT> > > > > Ok, that's probably still too primitive being Brainfuck derived. > > > Brainfuck also needs support for strings and integers. > > > > You're not going to be able to write systems software on z with it and > > probably not anywhere else either. > > Have you actually decided on what language elements from the > languages you use on Z or elsewhere that you actually need to do > what you're planning to do? No, I'm spending most of my time fielding questions from you guys. And I'm getting close to a new release at work. Pretty hectic right now. If I do this you guys are going to have to learn a lot about System Z if you're going to keep banging on me about it. > (language development questions probably better suited to comp.lang.misc) I don't have any of those questions yet. > Is an interpreter a key feature that you've decided on? Maybe. Probably. Isn't an interpreter something every Forth should have? > Is threaded code a key feature that you've decided on? What does that mean, multithreaded? Or threaded as in Threaded Interpretive Languages threaded. The first one I already know how to do. If you mean threaded as the interpretation model I need to read more about it but that is obviously one implementation. If it works elsewhere it's probably fine. If there are issues with multitasking in that design then I'll have to work them out since multitasking is critical for it to be useful. > Are variables a key feature that you've decided on? Sure unless you don't expect to do any actual work. You can't stack system control blocks and expect to be able to write intelligible code. Again this is not an application programming target. Think about the system code you have written for Intel and you'll be closer to what I am thinking about. > Are strings a key feature that you've decided on? Yes, see above. But they may not be strings as in a data type. Data is just data. But it is good to be able to call it by name. In the end maybe they're not strings at all, just data with a name (variable) and length (no null/nul terminated strings here). > Are integers a key feature that you've decided on? Yes, for addressing. > On the one hand you seem to be interested in something minimal and/or > flexible, but on the other you seem to be interested in systems programming > for System Z. Aren't the two contradictory, or mostly so? I don't think so. Part of writing systems software is avoiding painting yourself into environmental corners that all existing HLL have painted themselves into. When you start with a clean sheet of paper you have a lot more room to work and Forth because of its minimalness and extensibility seems like it could work. Systems programming doesn't take *more* code than applications programming, it just takes *different* code. PL/I on IBM *could* have been implemented as a systems programming-capable language. I have to believe, looking back, it was a conscious decision not to allow that...just like IBM never let PL/S, PL/AS, PL/X outside (except as noted). They were afraid it would be too easy to write systems software and compete with them, and also the people who learned it kind of weren't so valuable anywhere outside IBM since nobody else had the language they worked their whole career in. > If you're considering Forth, I'm assuming you considered Lisp also ... It > can be implemented as an interpreter from a minimal wordset also. I realize technically that's true but it seems so abusive to write systems software in LISP. And it has to be something I don't despise so..apologies to Paul, I know he is a Lisp fan, but it's not my thing. In the end there is going to have to be a compiled version or it won't be very useful. > Well, I don't know about System Z's implementation or complexity, > but elsewhere, a stripped down C compiler or a minimal assembler > does just about the same stuff as Brainfuck, if it had strings and > integers. I don't know about that. You can call any syscall from a minimal assembler but you can only do syscalls from C the compiler or runtime already support, unless you cheat and use assembler. Brainfuck can't do syscalls at all. > There are a couple of Brainfuck extensions that add procedure support. > Forth, while a more complete programming environment, is based upon > much of the same functionality too, but more of it. Brainfuck uses an > array. Forth uses two stacks and an array. Forth needs about 35 low-level > words, or primitives, or so to be useful and develop the rest of the > language > in terms of them. Brainfuck has only eight "primitives", and all > programming > is expressed in terms of the "primitives". Etc. Neither brainfuck nor Forth nor any existing language has the facilities needed to write systems software on Z. The difference is you could probably write Forth and extend it to be able to do that whereas brainfuck as it is today could never be extended to work. All it does is add or subtract one from a cell and branch or not and write or read a byte from stdin or stdout. You could theoretically write application code with that on a theoretical machine but in reality I don't think you can. Yes I can add two numbers and print out the result but can you tell me on Intel since you know it so well, how would you switch from 32 bit to 64 bit mode and how you could change privilege levels in brainfuck? Stuff like that...I don't know enough about Intel or Windows or UNIX to know what to ask but I'm sure you can't do much just by adding or subtracting and branching, even though in theory you can. Real stuff is just more complicated than that and without a runtime and system interface you're not going to get any real work done. The brainfuck semantics don't include anything for useful work except line i/o.
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A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-22 19:16 -0400
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-03-23 00:38 -0700
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-03-23 00:56 -0700
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's For interpreter. Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-03-23 12:53 +0100
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's For interpreter. "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-23 20:44 -0400
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's For interpreter. Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-03-25 10:30 +0200
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's For interpreter. "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-25 06:05 -0400
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-03-27 03:03 +0200
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-26 15:39 -1000
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-28 11:18 +0200
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-30 07:04 -0400
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-30 19:24 +0200
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-03-30 13:00 -0700
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-04-04 16:09 +0200
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-30 18:06 -0400
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201204.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-04-02 16:39 +0200
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-04-02 15:37 -0700
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-02 16:59 -0700
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2012-04-03 17:15 -0500
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-04-04 05:23 -0400
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-04-04 15:58 +0200
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-04-05 09:57 -0400
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201204.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-04-11 21:23 +0200
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-04-11 19:13 -0400
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-04-11 18:22 -0700
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's hwfwguy@gmail.com - 2012-04-13 09:37 -0700
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201204.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-04-05 11:21 +0200
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-27 13:08 +0200
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's For interpreter. anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-26 08:58 +0000
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. Fanzo <cristianof6@gmail.com> - 2012-03-25 15:32 +0200
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-30 18:05 -0400
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-04-02 05:08 -0400
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-04-10 11:07 -0400
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-04-11 19:00 -0400
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-11 19:24 -0700
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-04-12 14:03 -0400
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-12 08:19 -1000
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-04-14 17:21 -0400
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2012-04-15 00:11 +0200
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-14 13:48 -1000
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-04-15 13:09 -0400
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-15 08:06 -1000
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-04-16 09:45 +0000
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-04-16 05:26 -0700
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-15 11:10 -0700
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-04-15 17:57 -0400
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-15 12:22 -1000
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-15 19:35 -0700
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-15 16:58 -1000
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-04-16 15:50 -0400
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-16 13:24 -0700
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-16 11:17 -1000
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-14 17:07 -0700
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-14 22:37 -0700
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-14 20:54 -1000
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-15 00:22 -0700
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-15 07:00 -0700
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-12 12:45 -0700
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-12 13:29 -0700
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-12 13:56 -0700
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-04-13 10:25 -0400
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-13 08:12 -0700
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-04-14 17:22 -0400
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-14 16:10 -0700
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-04-15 12:53 -0400
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-15 11:01 -0700
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-13 08:23 -0700
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-11 17:27 -1000
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-12 00:19 -0700
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-04-12 13:54 -0400
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-04-12 13:43 -0700
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-12 06:45 -0700
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-12 15:01 +0000
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-04-12 13:54 -0400
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-12 10:49 -0700
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-12 08:40 -1000
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-12 12:38 -0700
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-12 13:58 -1000
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-13 10:42 +0000
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-13 08:34 -0700
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-13 15:48 +0000
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-13 08:25 -1000
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-04-13 22:08 +0000
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-04-13 12:26 -1000
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-13 16:14 -0700
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-04-14 09:04 -0700
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-14 15:59 -0700
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-04-15 10:50 +0000
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-15 07:06 -0700
XT only or XT+NT (was: A short history ...) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-14 14:06 +0000
Re: XT only or XT+NT (was: A short history ...) Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-04-16 02:39 -0700
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-04-13 08:46 -0700
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-04-12 13:53 -0400
Re: A short history of the stages of development and status of RP's Forth interpreter. "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-04-19 17:06 -0400
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