Re: Batteries claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by 800 percent

From	"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	aus.computers, aus.electronics
Subject	Re: Batteries claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by 800 percent
Date	2015-06-06 19:51 +1000
Message-ID	<ctfu5jFd6atU1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References	(17 earlier) <ctdjvtFpttlU1@mid.individual.net> <ctdklkFq3raU1@mid.individual.net> <ctdlg1FqalgU1@mid.individual.net> <ctf65gF7kt0U1@mid.individual.net> <ctf914F878gU1@mid.individual.net>

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message 
news:ctf914F878gU1@mid.individual.net...
> On 6/06/2015 1:02 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
>> news:ctdlg1FqalgU1@mid.individual.net...
>>> On 5/06/2015 10:57 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
>>>> news:ctdjvtFpttlU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>> On 5/06/2015 9:52 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:ctd77pFmnt8U1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>>> On 5/06/2015 5:49 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:ctcrs0Fjup5U1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>>>>> On 5/06/2015 3:42 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> news:ctcprsFjgfkU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/06/2015 2:50 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>> news:ctcjseFi6rfU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/06/2015 12:23 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:ctccruFgnlaU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/06/2015 9:16 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:ct9ql0Fr49nU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/06/2015 4:30 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> message
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:ct79kgF79afU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/06/2015 11:38 AM, Damian wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> message
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:ct4tn7Fj4asU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/06/2015 1:47 PM, felix_unger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think the claims need to be, if not taken with a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pinch of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> salt, at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> least
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understood for exactly what they are.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The patent
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.google.com.au/patents/US20120121943?dq=20120121943+A1&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3TxtVf2zNYWO8QXdwYKgDw&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> states
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Some electronic equipments that use disposable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> batteries,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as AA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> batteries, are designed to stop operating when the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> battery
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> voltage
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> drops
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by 10% or so. That means when the voltage of an AA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> battery
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> drops to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1.4V or 1.35V."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Now, that may be true, but if the voltage curves
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shown in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figure 7
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> patent are correct, equipment that bails at 1.35 is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> clearly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exceedingly wasteful. Note that the claims is only 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "some"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the majority do, nor that most do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> By comparison, equipment that's happy to run until the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> voltage
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> drops
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to 1V
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will have removed most of the available energy from 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> battery.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Further,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if, as is possible, such equipment contains a linear
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regulator to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provide
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a constant internal voltage, then adding the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Batteriser to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provide a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> constant 1.5V input will just run the battery down
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> faster as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regulator
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dissipates more energy as heat.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That if the majority of the equipment comes with an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> internal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> step up
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> voltage
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regulator circuittry.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hardly any consumer electronic device come with that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> afaik.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Many that comes with such circuitry are commercial and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> scientific
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equipment.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's not a question of having step up circuitry. It's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matter of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what voltage the device requires to operate. If it can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> operate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on 1V
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> per cell then there's no need to provide extra
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> circuity to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pump the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> voltage back to 1.5V per cell. Doing so not only wastes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> energy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pump circuitry due to its lack of 100% efficiency,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but also wastes energy in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 0.5V drop from what's supplied to the device to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nope. They don’t normally regulate it down to that 1V
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It just works fine with everything from 1.5V down to 1V.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Think about the physics of it, Rod. If it can work on 1V,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> higher voltage wastes energy,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No it does not.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unless the device contrives to draw a lower current at the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> higher
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> voltage
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nope, think of a constant current device.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A constant current device consumes power in proportion to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> applied
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> voltage.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But the device isn't necessarily a constant current device.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You raised constant current devices.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Only to rub your nose in that error of yours.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (which typically implies some kind of non-linear
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regulator).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No reason why it can't just connect the battery
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> directly to the load while ever the voltage is high
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enough and put it thru a step up regulator when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the battery voltage is too low, to get what remains
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the battery out of the battery.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Care to propose an actual circuit that does that without
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> itself
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wasting energy?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One obvious way to do that is to use a relay that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> applys the battery directly to what its powering
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> while ever the battery has sufficient voltage and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then switches the step up regulator in when the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> battery voltage drops below the voltage at which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the device will turn itself off due to insufficient voltage.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And the relay coil is powered how?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn’t have to be powered, it can be a bistable relay
>>>>>>>>>>>> or use the normally closed terminals when the relay
>>>>>>>>>>>> is not powered to connect the battery directly to the
>>>>>>>>>>>> load when the battery voltage is high enough.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In any case, the point remains that applying an 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unnecessarily
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> high
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> voltage to a device is wasteful of energy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But you don’t have to do it like that. The battery
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can be directly connected to the load when it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is producing sufficient voltage to power the load.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The batteriser cannot tell what voltage is sufficient.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It can work that out from when the load no longer
>>>>>>>>>>>> runs when the battery voltage is low enough.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Devices don't necessarily stop drawing current just because the
>>>>>>>>>>> input
>>>>>>>>>>> voltage has reached a level below which they cannot work
>>>>>>>>>>> properly.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sure, but there normally is a significant drop in current
>>>>>>>>>> drawn when they decide that the voltage is too low to
>>>>>>>>>> allow the device to be used normally.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't know about "normally",
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Or anything else at all either.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> but in any case, there are significant drops in current for 
>>>>>>>>> reasons
>>>>>>>>> entirely unrelated to the voltage being too low,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not to such a low level of current that it clearly
>>>>>>>> isn't turned on as far as the user is concerned.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And you have a cite to back up that claim?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Don’t need a cite, even someone as stupid as you can try measuring 
>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have a clock with an un-illuminated LCD readout.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And that isn't sort of device that anyone but someone
>>>>>> as stupid as you would ever use something like what is
>>>>>> being discussed with.
>>>>
>>>>> I wondered whether this would be the point where you'd start excluding
>>>>> devices that are counter-examples.
>>>>
>>>> You never could bullshit your way out of a wet paper bag.
>>>>
>>>> And it isn't a counter example either.
>>>>
>>>>>> And even if you did, you would find that when it stops
>>>>>> working with a particular battery, that there is a significant
>>>>>> drop in the current it takes from that battery when it does.
>>>>
>>>>> The current it draws rises and falls by about 50% very couple of
>>>>> seconds.
>>>>
>>>> And its completely trivial for any well designed system to see that.
>>>>
>>>>> When the alarm goes off, the current rises considerably,
>>>>
>>>> Irrelevant when what its looking for is a significant and permanent
>>>> drop.
>>>
>>> How long does one have to watch a drop to determine whether or not it
>>> is permanent?
>>
>> Obviously if it drops to much lower than it was for a
>> significant amount of time, its obviously stopped.

> Music player between tracks?

It's completely trivial to keep track of the minimum current seen
while the voltage is well above what any device would shut down
at and then observe that the current has dropped well below that
when the voltage has dropped to a level at which some do shut down
because the voltage is too low, and switch the boost converter in then.

Thanks for that completely superfluous proof of why no one has ever actually
been stupid enough to employ you do design anything that matters.

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Thread

Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by   800 percent "Damian" <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> - 2015-06-03 11:38 +1000
  Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by   800 percent "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-06-03 16:30 +1000
    Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by   800 percent Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-06-04 12:14 +1000
      Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by   800 percent "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-06-04 21:16 +1000
        Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by   800 percent BuckyBalls <"The Pres"@yahoo.com> - 2015-06-04 13:37 +0200
        Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by   800 percent Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-06-05 11:38 +1000
          Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by   800 percent "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-06-05 12:23 +1000
            Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by   800 percent Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-06-05 15:19 +1000
              Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by   800 percent "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-06-05 15:42 +1000
                Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by   800 percent Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-06-05 15:54 +1000
                Re: Batteries claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by   800 percent Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-06-05 19:08 +1000
                Re: Batteries claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by   800 percent "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-06-05 21:52 +1000
                Re: Batteries claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by   800 percent Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-06-05 22:45 +1000
                Re: Batteries claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by   800 percent "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-06-05 22:57 +1000
                Re: Batteries claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by   800 percent Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-06-05 23:11 +1000
                Re: Batteries claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by   800 percent "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-06-06 13:02 +1000
                Re: Batteries claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by   800 percent Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-06-06 13:50 +1000
                Re: Batteries claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by   800 percent "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-06-06 19:51 +1000
                Re: Batteries claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by   800 percent "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-06-06 19:59 +1000
      Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life   by   800 percent BuckyBalls <"The Pres"@yahoo.com> - 2015-06-04 13:34 +0200
        Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life     by   800 percent Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-06-05 11:40 +1000
          Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life     by   800 percent "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-06-05 12:25 +1000
            Re: Batteries claims to be able to extend disposable battery life     by   800 percent "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-06-05 14:54 +1000
          Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life       by   800 percent BuckyBalls <"The Pres"@yahoo.com> - 2015-06-05 12:54 +0200
            Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life         by   800 percent Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-06-05 23:03 +1000
              Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life           by   800 percent BuckyBalls <"The Pres"@yahoo.com> - 2015-06-05 16:47 +0200

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