Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by 800 percent

From	Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address>
Newsgroups	aus.computers, aus.electronics
Subject	Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by 800 percent
Date	2015-06-05 15:54 +1000
Message-ID	<ctcrs0Fjup5U1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References	(8 earlier) <ctcfh3Fh9j6U1@mid.individual.net> <ctcjseFi6rfU1@mid.individual.net> <ctco3vFj4l5U1@mid.individual.net> <ctcprsFjgfkU1@mid.individual.net> <ctcr76FjqfbU1@mid.individual.net>

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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On 5/06/2015 3:42 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
>
>
> "Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
> news:ctcprsFjgfkU1@mid.individual.net...
>> On 5/06/2015 2:50 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> "Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
>>> news:ctcjseFi6rfU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>> On 5/06/2015 12:23 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
>>>>> news:ctccruFgnlaU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>> On 4/06/2015 9:16 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:ct9ql0Fr49nU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>>>> On 3/06/2015 4:30 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:ct79kgF79afU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/06/2015 11:38 AM, Damian wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> "Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>> news:ct4tn7Fj4asU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/06/2015 1:47 PM, felix_unger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I think the claims need to be, if not taken with a pinch of
>>>>>>>>>>>> salt, at
>>>>>>>>>>>> least
>>>>>>>>>>>> understood for exactly what they are.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The patent
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.google.com.au/patents/US20120121943?dq=20120121943+A1&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3TxtVf2zNYWO8QXdwYKgDw&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> states
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Some electronic equipments that use disposable batteries, such
>>>>>>>>>>>> as AA
>>>>>>>>>>>> batteries, are designed to stop operating when the battery
>>>>>>>>>>>> voltage
>>>>>>>>>>>> drops
>>>>>>>>>>>> by 10% or so. That means when the voltage of an AA battery
>>>>>>>>>>>> drops to
>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>> 1.4V or 1.35V."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Now, that may be true, but if the voltage curves shown in
>>>>>>>>>>>> figure 7
>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> patent are correct, equipment that bails at 1.35 is clearly
>>>>>>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>>>>>>> exceedingly wasteful. Note that the claims is only that "some"
>>>>>>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Not
>>>>>>>>>>>> that the majority do, nor that most do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> By comparison, equipment that's happy to run until the voltage
>>>>>>>>>>>> drops
>>>>>>>>>>>> to 1V
>>>>>>>>>>>> will have removed most of the available energy from the
>>>>>>>>>>>> battery.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Further,
>>>>>>>>>>>> if, as is possible, such equipment contains a linear
>>>>>>>>>>>> regulator to
>>>>>>>>>>>> provide
>>>>>>>>>>>> a constant internal voltage, then adding the Batteriser to
>>>>>>>>>>>> provide a
>>>>>>>>>>>> constant 1.5V input will just run the battery down faster as
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> regulator
>>>>>>>>>>>> dissipates more energy as heat.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That if the majority of the equipment comes with an internal
>>>>>>>>>>> step up
>>>>>>>>>>> voltage
>>>>>>>>>>> regulator circuittry.
>>>>>>>>>>> Hardly any consumer electronic device come with that afaik.
>>>>>>>>>>> Many that comes with such circuitry are commercial and
>>>>>>>>>>> scientific
>>>>>>>>>>> equipment.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It's not a question of having step up circuitry. It's just a
>>>>>>>>>> matter of
>>>>>>>>>> what voltage the device requires to operate. If it can operate
>>>>>>>>>> on 1V
>>>>>>>>>> per cell then there's no need to provide extra circuity to
>>>>>>>>>> pump the
>>>>>>>>>> voltage back to 1.5V per cell. Doing so not only wastes energy
>>>>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>>>> pump circuitry due to its lack of 100% efficiency,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> but also wastes energy in
>>>>>>>>>> the 0.5V drop from what's supplied to the device to what it
>>>>>>>>>> needs.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nope. They don’t normally regulate it down to that 1V that is all
>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>> need.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It just works fine with everything from 1.5V down to 1V.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Think about the physics of it, Rod. If it can work on 1V, then any
>>>>>>>> higher voltage wastes energy,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No it does not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> unless the device contrives to draw a lower current at the higher
>>>>>>>> voltage
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nope, think of a constant current device.
>>>>>
>>>>>> A constant current device consumes power in proportion to the applied
>>>>>> voltage.
>>>>>
>>>>> But the device isn't necessarily a constant current device.
>>>
>>>> You raised constant current devices.
>>>
>>> Only to rub your nose in that error of yours.
>>>
>>>>>>>> (which typically implies some kind of non-linear regulator).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No reason why it can't just connect the battery
>>>>>>> directly to the load while ever the voltage is high
>>>>>>> enough and put it thru a step up regulator when
>>>>>>> the battery voltage is too low, to get what remains
>>>>>>> in the battery out of the battery.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Care to propose an actual circuit that does that without itself
>>>>>> wasting energy?
>>>>>
>>>>> One obvious way to do that is to use a relay that
>>>>> applys the battery directly to what its powering
>>>>> while ever the battery has sufficient voltage and
>>>>> then switches the step up regulator in when the
>>>>> battery voltage drops below the voltage at which
>>>>> the device will turn itself off due to insufficient voltage.
>>>
>>>> And the relay coil is powered how?
>>>
>>> Doesn’t have to be powered, it can be a bistable relay
>>> or use the normally closed terminals when the relay
>>> is not powered to connect the battery directly to the
>>> load when the battery voltage is high enough.
>>>
>>>>>> In any case, the point remains that applying an unnecessarily high
>>>>>> voltage to a device is wasteful of energy.
>>>>>
>>>>> But you don’t have to do it like that. The battery
>>>>> can be directly connected to the load when it
>>>>> is producing sufficient voltage to power the load.
>>>
>>>> The batteriser cannot tell what voltage is sufficient.
>>>
>>> It can work that out from when the load no longer
>>> runs when the battery voltage is low enough.
>>
>> Devices don't necessarily stop drawing current just because the input
>> voltage has reached a level below which they cannot work properly.
>
> Sure, but there normally is a significant drop in current
> drawn when they decide that the voltage is too low to
> allow the device to be used normally.

I don't know about "normally", but in any case, there are significant 
drops in current for reasons entirely unrelated to the voltage being too 
low, so no inference can be drawn.

Sylvia.

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Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by   800 percent "Damian" <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> - 2015-06-03 11:38 +1000
  Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by   800 percent "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-06-03 16:30 +1000
    Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by   800 percent Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-06-04 12:14 +1000
      Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by   800 percent "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-06-04 21:16 +1000
        Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by   800 percent BuckyBalls <"The Pres"@yahoo.com> - 2015-06-04 13:37 +0200
        Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by   800 percent Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-06-05 11:38 +1000
          Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by   800 percent "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-06-05 12:23 +1000
            Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by   800 percent Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-06-05 15:19 +1000
              Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by   800 percent "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-06-05 15:42 +1000
                Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by   800 percent Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-06-05 15:54 +1000
                Re: Batteries claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by   800 percent Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-06-05 19:08 +1000
                Re: Batteries claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by   800 percent "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-06-05 21:52 +1000
                Re: Batteries claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by   800 percent Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-06-05 22:45 +1000
                Re: Batteries claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by   800 percent "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-06-05 22:57 +1000
                Re: Batteries claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by   800 percent Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-06-05 23:11 +1000
                Re: Batteries claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by   800 percent "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-06-06 13:02 +1000
                Re: Batteries claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by   800 percent Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-06-06 13:50 +1000
                Re: Batteries claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by   800 percent "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-06-06 19:51 +1000
                Re: Batteries claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by   800 percent "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-06-06 19:59 +1000
      Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life   by   800 percent BuckyBalls <"The Pres"@yahoo.com> - 2015-06-04 13:34 +0200
        Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life     by   800 percent Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-06-05 11:40 +1000
          Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life     by   800 percent "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-06-05 12:25 +1000
            Re: Batteries claims to be able to extend disposable battery life     by   800 percent "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-06-05 14:54 +1000
          Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life       by   800 percent BuckyBalls <"The Pres"@yahoo.com> - 2015-06-05 12:54 +0200
            Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life         by   800 percent Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-06-05 23:03 +1000
              Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life           by   800 percent BuckyBalls <"The Pres"@yahoo.com> - 2015-06-05 16:47 +0200

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