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Groups > aus.computers > #46542
| From | Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | aus.computers, aus.electronics |
| Subject | Re: Batteries claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by 800 percent |
| Date | 2015-06-05 23:11 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <ctdlg1FqalgU1@mid.individual.net> (permalink) |
| References | (14 earlier) <ctd2juFlisnU1@mid.individual.net> <ctd77pFmnt8U1@mid.individual.net> <ctdgscFp4hdU1@mid.individual.net> <ctdjvtFpttlU1@mid.individual.net> <ctdklkFq3raU1@mid.individual.net> |
Cross-posted to 2 groups.
On 5/06/2015 10:57 PM, Rod Speed wrote: > > > "Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message > news:ctdjvtFpttlU1@mid.individual.net... >> On 5/06/2015 9:52 PM, Rod Speed wrote: >>> >>> >>> "Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message >>> news:ctd77pFmnt8U1@mid.individual.net... >>>> On 5/06/2015 5:49 PM, Rod Speed wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> "Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message >>>>> news:ctcrs0Fjup5U1@mid.individual.net... >>>>>> On 5/06/2015 3:42 PM, Rod Speed wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message >>>>>>> news:ctcprsFjgfkU1@mid.individual.net... >>>>>>>> On 5/06/2015 2:50 PM, Rod Speed wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message >>>>>>>>> news:ctcjseFi6rfU1@mid.individual.net... >>>>>>>>>> On 5/06/2015 12:23 PM, Rod Speed wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> "Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message >>>>>>>>>>> news:ctccruFgnlaU1@mid.individual.net... >>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/06/2015 9:16 PM, Rod Speed wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> "Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message >>>>>>>>>>>>> news:ct9ql0Fr49nU1@mid.individual.net... >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/06/2015 4:30 PM, Rod Speed wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:ct79kgF79afU1@mid.individual.net... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/06/2015 11:38 AM, Damian wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> message >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:ct4tn7Fj4asU1@mid.individual.net... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/06/2015 1:47 PM, felix_unger wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think the claims need to be, if not taken with a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pinch of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> salt, at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> least >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understood for exactly what they are. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The patent >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.google.com.au/patents/US20120121943?dq=20120121943+A1&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3TxtVf2zNYWO8QXdwYKgDw&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> states >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Some electronic equipments that use disposable >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> batteries, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as AA >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> batteries, are designed to stop operating when the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> battery >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> voltage >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> drops >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by 10% or so. That means when the voltage of an AA >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> battery >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> drops to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1.4V or 1.35V." >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Now, that may be true, but if the voltage curves shown in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figure 7 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> patent are correct, equipment that bails at 1.35 is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> clearly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exceedingly wasteful. Note that the claims is only that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "some" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the majority do, nor that most do. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> By comparison, equipment that's happy to run until the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> voltage >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> drops >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to 1V >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will have removed most of the available energy from the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> battery. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Further, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if, as is possible, such equipment contains a linear >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regulator to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a constant internal voltage, then adding the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Batteriser to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provide a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> constant 1.5V input will just run the battery down >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> faster as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regulator >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dissipates more energy as heat. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That if the majority of the equipment comes with an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> internal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> step up >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> voltage >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regulator circuittry. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hardly any consumer electronic device come with that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> afaik. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Many that comes with such circuitry are commercial and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> scientific >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equipment. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's not a question of having step up circuitry. It's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matter of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what voltage the device requires to operate. If it can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> operate >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on 1V >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> per cell then there's no need to provide extra circuity to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pump the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> voltage back to 1.5V per cell. Doing so not only wastes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> energy >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pump circuitry due to its lack of 100% efficiency, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but also wastes energy in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 0.5V drop from what's supplied to the device to what it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needs. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nope. They don’t normally regulate it down to that 1V >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It just works fine with everything from 1.5V down to 1V. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Think about the physics of it, Rod. If it can work on 1V, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> then >>>>>>>>>>>>>> any >>>>>>>>>>>>>> higher voltage wastes energy, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> No it does not. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> unless the device contrives to draw a lower current at the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> higher >>>>>>>>>>>>>> voltage >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Nope, think of a constant current device. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> A constant current device consumes power in proportion to the >>>>>>>>>>>> applied >>>>>>>>>>>> voltage. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> But the device isn't necessarily a constant current device. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You raised constant current devices. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Only to rub your nose in that error of yours. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (which typically implies some kind of non-linear regulator). >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> No reason why it can't just connect the battery >>>>>>>>>>>>> directly to the load while ever the voltage is high >>>>>>>>>>>>> enough and put it thru a step up regulator when >>>>>>>>>>>>> the battery voltage is too low, to get what remains >>>>>>>>>>>>> in the battery out of the battery. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Care to propose an actual circuit that does that without itself >>>>>>>>>>>> wasting energy? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> One obvious way to do that is to use a relay that >>>>>>>>>>> applys the battery directly to what its powering >>>>>>>>>>> while ever the battery has sufficient voltage and >>>>>>>>>>> then switches the step up regulator in when the >>>>>>>>>>> battery voltage drops below the voltage at which >>>>>>>>>>> the device will turn itself off due to insufficient voltage. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> And the relay coil is powered how? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Doesn’t have to be powered, it can be a bistable relay >>>>>>>>> or use the normally closed terminals when the relay >>>>>>>>> is not powered to connect the battery directly to the >>>>>>>>> load when the battery voltage is high enough. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> In any case, the point remains that applying an unnecessarily >>>>>>>>>>>> high >>>>>>>>>>>> voltage to a device is wasteful of energy. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> But you don’t have to do it like that. The battery >>>>>>>>>>> can be directly connected to the load when it >>>>>>>>>>> is producing sufficient voltage to power the load. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The batteriser cannot tell what voltage is sufficient. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It can work that out from when the load no longer >>>>>>>>> runs when the battery voltage is low enough. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Devices don't necessarily stop drawing current just because the >>>>>>>> input >>>>>>>> voltage has reached a level below which they cannot work properly. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sure, but there normally is a significant drop in current >>>>>>> drawn when they decide that the voltage is too low to >>>>>>> allow the device to be used normally. >>>>> >>>>>> I don't know about "normally", >>>>> >>>>> Or anything else at all either. >>>>> >>>>>> but in any case, there are significant drops in current for reasons >>>>>> entirely unrelated to the voltage being too low, >>>>> >>>>> Not to such a low level of current that it clearly >>>>> isn't turned on as far as the user is concerned. >>> >>>> And you have a cite to back up that claim? >>> >>> Don’t need a cite, even someone as stupid as you can try measuring it. >>> >>>> I have a clock with an un-illuminated LCD readout. >>> >>> And that isn't sort of device that anyone but someone >>> as stupid as you would ever use something like what is >>> being discussed with. > >> I wondered whether this would be the point where you'd start excluding >> devices that are counter-examples. > > You never could bullshit your way out of a wet paper bag. > > And it isn't a counter example either. > >>> And even if you did, you would find that when it stops >>> working with a particular battery, that there is a significant >>> drop in the current it takes from that battery when it does. > >> The current it draws rises and falls by about 50% very couple of seconds. > > And its completely trivial for any well designed system to see that. > >> When the alarm goes off, the current rises considerably, > > Irrelevant when what its looking for is a significant and permanent drop. How long does one have to watch a drop to determine whether or not it is permanent? > >> and then falls again once the alarm is cancelled. > > Irrelevant when what its looking for is a significant and permanent drop. It typically drops for slightly under 24 hours, despite being not permanent. > >>>> It runs on a single AAA battery, and draws about 15 microamps. Yet >>>> it's turned on. >>> >>> And that current will drop significantly when >>> it has decided that the battery is too flat to use. > >> You know this how? > > By measuring it, fuckwit. Tad radical, I know. > >>>> Just how low is this alleged not-turned-on threshold? >>> >>> A significant drop from the current it takes when turned on, fuckwit. > >> You mean you want to note the current when it's first turned on, and >> detect a later drop? > > Nope. Then what you're proposing makes no sense. Sylvia.
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Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by 800 percent "Damian" <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> - 2015-06-03 11:38 +1000
Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by 800 percent "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-06-03 16:30 +1000
Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by 800 percent Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-06-04 12:14 +1000
Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by 800 percent "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-06-04 21:16 +1000
Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by 800 percent BuckyBalls <"The Pres"@yahoo.com> - 2015-06-04 13:37 +0200
Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by 800 percent Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-06-05 11:38 +1000
Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by 800 percent "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-06-05 12:23 +1000
Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by 800 percent Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-06-05 15:19 +1000
Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by 800 percent "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-06-05 15:42 +1000
Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by 800 percent Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-06-05 15:54 +1000
Re: Batteries claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by 800 percent Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-06-05 19:08 +1000
Re: Batteries claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by 800 percent "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-06-05 21:52 +1000
Re: Batteries claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by 800 percent Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-06-05 22:45 +1000
Re: Batteries claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by 800 percent "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-06-05 22:57 +1000
Re: Batteries claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by 800 percent Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-06-05 23:11 +1000
Re: Batteries claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by 800 percent "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-06-06 13:02 +1000
Re: Batteries claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by 800 percent Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-06-06 13:50 +1000
Re: Batteries claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by 800 percent "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-06-06 19:51 +1000
Re: Batteries claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by 800 percent "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-06-06 19:59 +1000
Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by 800 percent BuckyBalls <"The Pres"@yahoo.com> - 2015-06-04 13:34 +0200
Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by 800 percent Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-06-05 11:40 +1000
Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by 800 percent "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-06-05 12:25 +1000
Re: Batteries claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by 800 percent "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-06-05 14:54 +1000
Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by 800 percent BuckyBalls <"The Pres"@yahoo.com> - 2015-06-05 12:54 +0200
Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by 800 percent Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-06-05 23:03 +1000
Re: Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery life by 800 percent BuckyBalls <"The Pres"@yahoo.com> - 2015-06-05 16:47 +0200
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