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Groups > de.alt.folklore.computer > #44565

Re: Triumph of the Nerds

From Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de>
Newsgroups de.alt.folklore.computer
Subject Re: Triumph of the Nerds
Date 2024-05-07 08:42 +0000
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <v1cpgu$35feh$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (8 earlier) <l9p8fuFrft6U1@mid.individual.net> <slrnv3f42j.16usm.hjp-usenet4@trintignant.hjp.at> <l9q1h8Fj2mU1@mid.individual.net> <slrnv3fovi.17r33.hjp-usenet4@trintignant.hjp.at> <l9suacFe83jU1@mid.individual.net>

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poc@pocnet.net <poc@pocnet.net> schrieb:
> Peter J. Holzer <hjp-usenet4@hjp.at> wrote:

>> Das verstehe ich jetzt nicht. Warum glaubst Du, dass genau diese Leute
>> in der Lage sein sollten, in C sauber und sicher zu programmieren?
>
> Habe ich das falsch verstanden? Ich meinte, dass man diesen Leuten zeigen
> kann, dass man auch in C "sicher" programmieren kann.

Ist möglich, im Prinzip.

Allerdings (und jetzt hole ich mal ein bisschen aus) hängt das
mit dem zusammen, was Brooks "accidental complexity" und "essential
complexity" nennt (in "No Silver Bullet").

"Accidental complexity" ist bei ihm der Teil der Komplexität,
der durch die Umstände verursacht wird, wie z.B. die Wahl einer
Programmiersprache (Assembler, C, Fortran, Julia oder Python) oder
einer Programmierumgebung (Batch oder interaktiv (bei ihm noch
"Timesharing" genannt - folkloristisch)).  "Essential complexity"
ist der Teil, dem einen keiner abnhehmen kann - da muss selber
gedacht, strukturiert etc werden.

Und C hat, als Programmiersprache auf einem relativ niedrigen Level,
eine höhere "accidental complexity" als Fortran oder Julia.  Damit
sinkt in der Regel die Produktivität, und die Fehlerrate erhöht sich.

Bei Programmierern ist sowieso die Produktivität sehr stark
unterschiedlch, Brooks berichtet schon über einen Faktor 10.

Die Frage ist halt, ob man die niedrigere "accidental complexity"
mit schlechterer Performance bezahlen muss.  Bei Python ist
das definitiv der Fall, bei Fortran ist es eher das Gegenteil
(Fortran-Code ist zumindest von den Möglichkeiten der Sprache
schneller als C), bei Julia muss man mit einer gewissen Disziplin
programmieren (statische statt dynamische Arrays z.B.), um an die
Geschwindigkeit von C oder Fortran ranzukommen und bei Python
hat man entweder hocheffiziente Libraries oder todlangsamen
interpretierten Code.

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Thread

Triumph of the Nerds Joerg Walther <joerg.walther@magenta.de> - 2024-04-06 09:37 +0200
  Re: Triumph of the Nerds Michael Pachta <mipani@gmx.de> - 2024-04-06 10:06 +0200
    Re: Triumph of the Nerds Joerg Walther <joerg.walther@magenta.de> - 2024-04-06 11:37 +0200
  Re: Triumph of the Nerds Kay Martinen <usenet@martinen.de> - 2024-04-06 11:14 +0200
    Re: Triumph of the Nerds Joerg Walther <joerg.walther@magenta.de> - 2024-04-06 11:39 +0200
      Re: Triumph of the Nerds Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-04-08 12:27 +0200
        Re: Triumph of the Nerds Joerg Walther <joerg.walther@magenta.de> - 2024-04-08 13:33 +0200
  Re: Triumph of the Nerds Sebastian Barthel <naitsabes@freenet.de> - 2024-04-17 17:33 +0000
    Re: Triumph of the Nerds Diedrich Ehlerding <diedrich.ehlerding@t-online.de> - 2024-04-18 08:46 +0200
    Re: Triumph of the Nerds Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2024-04-18 19:41 +0200
    Re: Triumph of the Nerds Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-04-19 18:44 +0200
      Re: Triumph of the Nerds Kay Martinen <usenet@martinen.de> - 2024-04-20 22:34 +0200
    Re: Triumph of the Nerds Hermann Riemann <nospam.ng@hermann-riemann.de> - 2024-04-21 17:18 +0200
  Re: Triumph of the Nerds "F. W." <me@home.invalid> - 2024-04-24 07:41 +0200
    Re: Triumph of the Nerds Dennis Grevenstein <dennis.grevenstein@gmail.com> - 2024-04-24 08:49 +0000
      Re: Triumph of the Nerds "F. W." <me@home.invalid> - 2024-04-24 11:38 +0200
        Re: Triumph of the Nerds Michael Kraemer <m.kraemer@gsi.de> - 2024-04-24 16:28 +0200
        Re: Triumph of the Nerds Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2024-04-24 18:55 +0000
        Re: Triumph of the Nerds poc@pocnet.net - 2024-04-24 20:53 +0000
          Re: Triumph of the Nerds "F. W." <me@home.invalid> - 2024-04-30 13:33 +0200
            Re: Triumph of the Nerds Sebastian Barthel <naitsabes@freenet.de> - 2024-04-30 13:11 +0000
              Re: Triumph of the Nerds poc@pocnet.net - 2024-05-01 11:15 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Sebastian Barthel <naitsabes@freenet.de> - 2024-05-02 18:49 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds poc@pocnet.net - 2024-05-02 21:14 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds poc@pocnet.net - 2024-05-02 21:16 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2024-05-03 07:46 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet4@hjp.at> - 2024-05-03 20:21 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-05-03 22:03 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2024-05-04 07:14 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Michael Kraemer <m.kraemer@gsi.de> - 2024-05-04 09:37 +0200
                C (was: Triumph of the Nerds) "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet4@hjp.at> - 2024-05-04 11:23 +0200
                Re: C Hermann Riemann <nospam.ng@hermann-riemann.de> - 2024-05-04 13:17 +0200
                Re: C Michael Kraemer <m.kraemer@gsi.de> - 2024-05-04 14:47 +0200
                Re: C Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-05-05 16:43 +0200
                Re: C Hermann Riemann <nospam.ng@hermann-riemann.de> - 2024-05-06 09:41 +0200
                Re: C "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet4@hjp.at> - 2024-05-05 02:08 +0200
                Re: C Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-05-05 16:41 +0200
                Re: C Ralf Damaschke <rwspam@gmx.de> - 2024-05-05 16:02 +0000
                Re: C Ralf Damaschke <rwspam@gmx.de> - 2024-05-05 23:47 +0000
                Re: C "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet4@hjp.at> - 2024-05-05 19:55 +0200
                Re: C Hermann Riemann <nospam.ng@hermann-riemann.de> - 2024-05-06 09:50 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-05-04 11:26 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2024-05-04 10:01 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet4@hjp.at> - 2024-05-04 12:19 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-05-05 16:47 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Hermann Riemann <nospam.ng@hermann-riemann.de> - 2024-05-04 13:20 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2024-05-04 09:09 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-05-04 11:23 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2024-05-05 10:16 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-05-05 16:18 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2024-05-06 18:41 +0200
                Pascal (was: Triumph of the Nerds) "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet4@hjp.at> - 2024-05-06 19:55 +0200
                Re: Pascal Hermann Riemann <nospam.ng@hermann-riemann.de> - 2024-05-07 06:40 +0200
                Re: Pascal "F. W." <me@home.invalid> - 2024-05-07 07:48 +0200
                Re: Pascal Hermann Riemann <nospam.ng@hermann-riemann.de> - 2024-05-07 08:26 +0200
                Re: Pascal Hermann Riemann <nospam.ng@hermann-riemann.de> - 2024-05-07 13:04 +0200
                Re: Pascal Hermann Riemann <nospam.ng@hermann-riemann.de> - 2024-05-07 14:57 +0200
                Re: Pascal Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2024-05-07 13:11 +0000
                Re: Pascal Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2024-05-07 13:55 +0000
                Re: Pascal "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet4@hjp.at> - 2024-05-08 21:33 +0200
                Re: Pascal Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2024-05-09 07:42 +0000
                Re: Pascal Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-05-09 12:09 +0200
                Re: Pascal Hermann Riemann <nospam.ng@hermann-riemann.de> - 2024-05-09 12:37 +0200
                Re: Pascal Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-05-09 12:42 +0200
                Re: Pascal Andreas Bockelmann <xotzil@gmx.de> - 2024-05-12 11:36 +0200
                Re: Pascal Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2024-05-12 13:42 +0000
                Re: Pascal Andreas Bockelmann <xotzil@gmx.de> - 2024-05-12 19:19 +0200
                Re: Pascal Andreas Karrer <ak-4a@gmx.ch> - 2024-05-12 21:39 +0000
                Re: Pascal "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet4@hjp.at> - 2024-05-09 16:09 +0200
                Re: Pascal Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-05-09 17:49 +0200
                Re: Pascal Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2024-05-12 20:56 +0200
                Re: Pascal Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2024-05-12 19:46 +0000
                Re: Pascal Peter Müller <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2024-05-12 22:00 +0200
                Re: Pascal Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2024-05-07 18:16 +0200
                Re: Pascal "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet4@hjp.at> - 2024-05-08 20:20 +0200
                Re: Pascal Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2024-05-12 21:13 +0200
                Re: Pascal Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2024-05-13 10:39 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-05-07 09:20 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2024-05-07 18:03 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Hermann Riemann <nospam.ng@hermann-riemann.de> - 2024-05-08 04:13 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-05-08 12:01 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Kay Martinen <usenet@martinen.de> - 2024-05-13 01:54 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2024-05-13 10:51 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Hermann Riemann <nospam.ng@hermann-riemann.de> - 2024-05-13 13:45 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Hermann Riemann <nospam.ng@hermann-riemann.de> - 2024-05-13 14:04 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2024-05-13 17:23 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds poc@pocnet.net - 2024-05-05 11:22 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet4@hjp.at> - 2024-05-05 15:57 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds poc@pocnet.net - 2024-05-05 18:30 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet4@hjp.at> - 2024-05-05 21:54 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-05-06 13:04 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2024-05-06 11:45 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds poc@pocnet.net - 2024-05-06 20:53 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2024-05-07 08:42 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds poc@pocnet.net - 2024-05-07 21:56 +0000
                Accidental Complexity von Programmiersprachen (was: Triumph of the Nerds) "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet4@hjp.at> - 2024-05-08 21:06 +0200
                Re: Accidental Complexity von Programmiersprachen (was: Triumph of the Nerds) Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2024-05-09 07:31 +0000
                Re: Accidental Complexity von Programmiersprachen Hermann Riemann <nospam.ng@hermann-riemann.de> - 2024-05-09 10:12 +0200
                Re: Accidental Complexity von Programmiersprachen Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2024-05-09 13:03 +0000
                Re: Accidental Complexity von Programmiersprachen Hermann Riemann <nospam.ng@hermann-riemann.de> - 2024-05-09 16:03 +0200
                Re: Accidental Complexity von Programmiersprachen "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet4@hjp.at> - 2024-05-09 16:57 +0200
                Re: Accidental Complexity von Programmiersprachen Hermann Riemann <nospam.ng@hermann-riemann.de> - 2024-05-09 17:36 +0200
                Re: Accidental Complexity von Programmiersprachen Hermann Riemann <nospam.ng@hermann-riemann.de> - 2024-05-09 18:52 +0200
                Re: Accidental Complexity von Programmiersprachen Hermann Riemann <nospam.ng@hermann-riemann.de> - 2024-05-10 03:49 +0200
                Re: Accidental Complexity von Programmiersprachen "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet4@hjp.at> - 2024-05-09 19:22 +0200
                Re: Accidental Complexity von Programmiersprachen Hermann Riemann <nospam.ng@hermann-riemann.de> - 2024-05-10 04:07 +0200
                Re: Accidental Complexity von Programmiersprachen Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2024-05-09 17:00 +0000
                Re: Accidental Complexity von Programmiersprachen "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet4@hjp.at> - 2024-05-09 20:25 +0200
                Re: Accidental Complexity von Programmiersprachen Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2024-05-09 20:55 +0000
                Re: Accidental Complexity von Programmiersprachen "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet4@hjp.at> - 2024-05-09 23:53 +0200
                Re: Accidental Complexity von Programmiersprachen Hermann Riemann <nospam.ng@hermann-riemann.de> - 2024-05-10 04:26 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet4@hjp.at> - 2024-05-08 20:53 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds poc@pocnet.net - 2024-05-08 20:09 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-05-06 12:50 +0200
                Yoda expressions (was: Triumph of the Nerds) "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet4@hjp.at> - 2024-05-06 19:39 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Hermann Riemann <nospam.ng@hermann-riemann.de> - 2024-05-06 14:16 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2024-05-06 19:04 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-05-05 16:28 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds poc@pocnet.net - 2024-05-05 18:33 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-05-06 13:09 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds poc@pocnet.net - 2024-05-06 21:01 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet4@hjp.at> - 2024-05-08 20:01 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds poc@pocnet.net - 2024-05-08 20:15 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-05-09 12:18 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds poc@pocnet.net - 2024-05-09 16:36 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-05-05 16:37 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet4@hjp.at> - 2024-05-05 19:51 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds "Peter Heitzer" <peter.heitzer@rz.uni-regensburg.de> - 2024-05-06 07:41 +0000
                C (was: Triumph of the Nerds) "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet4@hjp.at> - 2024-05-06 19:13 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Hermann Riemann <nospam.ng@hermann-riemann.de> - 2024-05-06 09:58 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-05-06 10:34 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Hermann Riemann <nospam.ng@hermann-riemann.de> - 2024-05-06 14:00 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet4@hjp.at> - 2024-05-05 19:57 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2024-05-06 12:06 +0000
                C (was: Triumph of the Nerds) "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet4@hjp.at> - 2024-05-06 19:29 +0200
                Re: C Hermann Riemann <nospam.ng@hermann-riemann.de> - 2024-05-07 06:49 +0200
                Re: C Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2024-05-07 06:30 +0000
                Re: C Hermann Riemann <nospam.ng@hermann-riemann.de> - 2024-05-07 09:42 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2024-05-06 18:55 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds poc@pocnet.net - 2024-05-06 21:03 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2024-05-07 06:32 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Hermann Riemann <nospam.ng@hermann-riemann.de> - 2024-05-07 09:44 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds poc@pocnet.net - 2024-05-07 08:26 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2024-05-07 18:13 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Thomas Klix <wotokl@web.de> - 2024-05-07 21:50 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2024-05-07 21:49 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds poc@pocnet.net - 2024-05-07 22:16 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds poc@pocnet.net - 2024-05-07 22:10 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2024-05-08 08:40 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds poc@pocnet.net - 2024-05-08 14:19 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2024-05-08 15:14 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-05-08 18:16 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds poc@pocnet.net - 2024-05-08 17:30 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-05-09 12:20 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2024-05-09 12:19 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-05-09 17:52 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds poc@pocnet.net - 2024-05-09 16:43 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2024-05-09 16:48 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds poc@pocnet.net - 2024-05-09 16:40 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Hermann Riemann <nospam.ng@hermann-riemann.de> - 2024-05-09 14:26 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds poc@pocnet.net - 2024-05-09 16:38 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2024-05-12 21:09 +0200
              Re: Triumph of the Nerds Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-05-02 19:46 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Sebastian Barthel <naitsabes@freenet.de> - 2024-05-02 18:44 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-05-03 22:09 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Christian Corti <use@reply.to> - 2024-05-06 12:58 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2024-05-06 15:07 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds poc@pocnet.net - 2024-05-06 21:06 +0000
            Re: Triumph of the Nerds Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2024-04-30 17:40 +0000
              Re: Triumph of the Nerds "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet4@hjp.at> - 2024-05-01 07:17 +0200
              Re: Triumph of the Nerds Hermann Riemann <nospam.ng@hermann-riemann.de> - 2024-05-01 09:10 +0200
              Re: Triumph of the Nerds poc@pocnet.net - 2024-05-01 11:40 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2024-05-01 12:18 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds poc@pocnet.net - 2024-05-01 20:44 +0000
              Re: Triumph of the Nerds "F. W." <me@home.invalid> - 2024-05-02 07:31 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Dennis Grevenstein <dennis.grevenstein@gmail.com> - 2024-05-02 05:54 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds "F. W." <me@home.invalid> - 2024-05-03 09:25 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2024-05-03 08:35 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds "F. W." <me@home.invalid> - 2024-05-03 11:20 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-05-03 22:13 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2024-05-03 21:14 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds "F. W." <me@home.invalid> - 2024-05-06 07:48 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-05-03 22:12 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds "F. W." <me@home.invalid> - 2024-05-06 07:49 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Markus Elsken <markus.elsken@ewetel.net> - 2024-05-06 23:53 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2024-05-07 06:34 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Markus Elsken <markus.elsken@ewetel.net> - 2024-05-07 22:48 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2024-05-08 06:35 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Markus Elsken <markus.elsken@ewetel.net> - 2024-05-09 15:37 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2024-05-09 22:53 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Markus Elsken <markus.elsken@ewetel.net> - 2024-05-10 01:05 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-05-07 16:09 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet4@hjp.at> - 2024-05-02 19:31 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-05-02 19:50 +0200
            Re: Triumph of the Nerds poc@pocnet.net - 2024-05-01 11:07 +0000
    Re: Triumph of the Nerds poc@pocnet.net - 2024-04-24 09:08 +0000
      Re: Triumph of the Nerds "F. W." <me@home.invalid> - 2024-04-24 11:40 +0200
      Re: Triumph of the Nerds Hermann Riemann <nospam.ng@hermann-riemann.de> - 2024-04-24 17:31 +0200
        Re: Triumph of the Nerds poc@pocnet.net - 2024-04-24 20:57 +0000
          Re: Triumph of the Nerds Hermann Riemann <nospam.ng@hermann-riemann.de> - 2024-04-25 10:04 +0200
            Re: Triumph of the Nerds poc@pocnet.net - 2024-04-25 08:59 +0000
            Re: Triumph of the Nerds Dennis Grevenstein <dennis.grevenstein@gmail.com> - 2024-04-25 11:52 +0000
          Re: Triumph of the Nerds Gerald E¡scher <Spamer@fahr-zur-Hoelle.org> - 2024-04-25 14:47 +0000
            Re: Triumph of the Nerds Joerg Walther <joerg.walther@magenta.de> - 2024-04-25 18:59 +0200
              Re: Triumph of the Nerds Joerg Walther <joerg.walther@magenta.de> - 2024-04-26 15:38 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Hermann Riemann <nospam.ng@hermann-riemann.de> - 2024-05-07 07:13 +0200
              Re: Triumph of the Nerds Gerald E¡scher <Spamer@fahr-zur-Hoelle.org> - 2024-04-26 13:04 +0000
              Re: Triumph of the Nerds Kay Martinen <usenet@martinen.de> - 2024-05-15 19:45 +0200
            Re: Triumph of the Nerds poc@pocnet.net - 2024-04-27 10:42 +0000
              Re: Triumph of the Nerds Dennis Grevenstein <dennis.grevenstein@gmail.com> - 2024-04-27 13:18 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Sebastian Barthel <naitsabes@freenet.de> - 2024-04-30 13:25 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Dennis Grevenstein <dennis.grevenstein@gmail.com> - 2024-04-30 14:40 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Sebastian Barthel <naitsabes@freenet.de> - 2024-05-02 19:01 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Dennis Grevenstein <dennis.grevenstein@gmail.com> - 2024-05-02 20:18 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Sebastian Barthel <naitsabes@freenet.de> - 2024-05-03 22:46 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Dennis Grevenstein <dennis.grevenstein@gmail.com> - 2024-05-04 02:02 +0000
        Re: Triumph of the Nerds Kay Martinen <usenet@martinen.de> - 2024-04-28 01:40 +0200
          Re: Triumph of the Nerds Hermann Riemann <nospam.ng@hermann-riemann.de> - 2024-04-29 06:26 +0200
            Re: Triumph of the Nerds poc@pocnet.net - 2024-04-29 16:11 +0000
              Re: Triumph of the Nerds Hermann Riemann <nospam.ng@hermann-riemann.de> - 2024-04-30 11:32 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds poc@pocnet.net - 2024-04-30 11:13 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Sebastian Barthel <naitsabes@freenet.de> - 2024-04-30 13:33 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Thomas Klix <wotokl@web.de> - 2024-04-30 16:30 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Thomas Klix <wotokl@web.de> - 2024-04-30 16:46 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Sebastian Barthel <naitsabes@freenet.de> - 2024-05-02 19:16 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Christian Corti <use@reply.to> - 2024-05-06 13:07 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-05-06 16:03 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Christian Corti <use@reply.to> - 2024-05-06 18:10 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Thomas Klix <wotokl@web.de> - 2024-05-06 21:53 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds poc@pocnet.net - 2024-05-06 21:08 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Guido Grohmann <guido.grohmann@gmx.de> - 2024-05-07 06:59 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds poc@pocnet.net - 2024-05-07 08:28 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-05-07 16:10 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds poc@pocnet.net - 2024-05-07 22:15 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Diedrich Ehlerding <diedrich.ehlerding@t-online.de> - 2024-05-08 08:42 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Guido Grohmann <guido.grohmann@gmx.de> - 2024-05-07 16:51 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-05-07 17:42 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Stefan+Usenet@Froehlich.Priv.at (Stefan Froehlich) - 2024-04-30 15:10 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet4@hjp.at> - 2024-04-30 19:08 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Gerrit Heitsch <gerrit@laosinh.s.bawue.de> - 2024-05-01 08:15 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds poc@pocnet.net - 2024-05-01 11:49 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds poc@pocnet.net - 2024-05-01 11:46 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Sebastian Barthel <naitsabes@freenet.de> - 2024-04-30 13:34 +0000
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Hermann Riemann <nospam.ng@hermann-riemann.de> - 2024-04-30 18:34 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds poc@pocnet.net - 2024-05-01 11:50 +0000
    Re: Triumph of the Nerds Joerg Walther <joerg.walther@magenta.de> - 2024-04-24 16:59 +0200
    Re: Triumph of the Nerds "Chr. Maercker" <Zweistein@gmx-topmail.de> - 2024-04-28 19:35 +0200
      Re: Triumph of the Nerds Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2024-04-28 20:24 +0000
        Re: Triumph of the Nerds "Chr. Maercker" <Zweistein@gmx-topmail.de> - 2024-04-28 23:26 +0200
          Re: Triumph of the Nerds Sebastian Barthel <naitsabes@freenet.de> - 2024-04-30 13:43 +0000
            Re: Triumph of the Nerds "Chr. Maercker" <Zweistein@gmx-topmail.de> - 2024-05-02 20:07 +0200
              Re: Triumph of the Nerds Hermann Riemann <nospam.ng@hermann-riemann.de> - 2024-05-02 20:48 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds "Chr. Maercker" <Zweistein@gmx-topmail.de> - 2024-05-03 23:15 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds Hermann Riemann <nospam.ng@hermann-riemann.de> - 2024-05-04 10:00 +0200
                Re: Triumph of the Nerds "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet4@hjp.at> - 2024-05-04 11:33 +0200
          Re: Triumph of the Nerds Kay Martinen <usenet@martinen.de> - 2024-05-15 15:14 +0200
      Re: Triumph of the Nerds Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-04-29 13:21 +0200
      Re: Triumph of the Nerds Gerrit Heitsch <gerrit@laosinh.s.bawue.de> - 2024-04-30 07:33 +0200
        Re: Triumph of the Nerds Gerrit Heitsch <gerrit@laosinh.s.bawue.de> - 2024-04-30 17:55 +0200
      Re: Triumph of the Nerds Sebastian Barthel <naitsabes@freenet.de> - 2024-04-30 13:54 +0000
        Re: Triumph of the Nerds Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2024-04-30 22:57 +0200
      Re: Triumph of the Nerds Kay Martinen <usenet@martinen.de> - 2024-05-15 15:32 +0200

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