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Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #160769

Re: Computers anyone?

From Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org>
Newsgroups alt.folklore.computers
Subject Re: Computers anyone?
Date 2016-03-09 21:35 -0600
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <nbqpt8$cck$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References <dka4p9Fhde9U1@mid.individual.net> <874mcfu0w7.fsf@garlic.com> <4qidnScPE9p74X3LnZ2dnUU7-eOdnZ2d@giganews.com> <MPG.314a6ff2b42ffe7e989fcf@news.eternal-september.org>

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On 09-Mar-16 16:38, J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <4qidnScPE9p74X3LnZ2dnUU7-eOdnZ2d@giganews.com>, 
> jmelson@wustl.edu says...
>> Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
>>> [John Boyd] used it to re-design the F-15, changing it from an
>>> 80,000-pound, swing-wing, sluggish behemoth, to a 40,000-pound
>>> fixed-wing, high-performance, maneuvering fighter.
>>
>> Uhh, the Navy's F-14 was swing wing, the F-15 is fixed.
> 
> Note that that particular "sluggish behemoth" ...

I think you both misread the above; what I see is that _before_ Boyd got
involved, the F-15's design was bad, but he used "it" (whatever that
meant in context) to make the design much better.

> ... is so fearsome that one lighting off its radar will ground whole 
> third-world air forces and when it was removed from service every 
> single aircraft in the inventory was destroyed lest the one third-
> world air force that had a few of them get spare parts and thus do
> untold damage to the supposedly vastly superior lightweight fighters
> that can't force it to engage, can't run away from it, and can't
> shoot at it until long after it has killed them.

The F-15 was indeed a fearsome fighter; the F-22 is better, and a few
later MiGs could match it, but nothing else can even touch it, and yes,
we don't want anyone else to have them--not even our allies.

OTOH, the F-16 was a ground attack plane, not a fighter; ditto for the
F-117.  However, due to Congress's stupidity, the USAF had to designate
them both "fighter" planes to get them funded.  And we have no problem
selling thousands of them to other countries.

The idea is that a few (very expensive) F-15s would clear the air over
the target so that a bunch of (very cheap) F-16s could come in and bomb
said target.  That is _exactly_ what the USAF did in Iraq I, with the
addition of F-117s taking out SAM/AAA sites before the F-15s.  Those
cool videos of laser- and GPS-guided bombs taking out tanks or flying in
windows were courtesy of F-16s.

The F-35 was supposed to replace the F-16 and F-18, but the F-22 was too
expensive, so Congress killed it and demanded the F-35 design be changed
to do both roles--and as a result, costs have spiraled out of control to
an even greater degree than the F-22's did.

The reality is that you can buy at least a dozen F-16s for the price of
one F-35, and probably two or three by the time it's in production--and
an F-35 can't even beat _one_ F-16 in combat, much less a dozen of them
at once.  Even an F-15 or F-22 would struggle at that, but only because
it'd run out of missiles before it ran out of targets to kill.

S

-- 
Stephen Sprunk         "God does not play dice."  --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723         "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS        dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

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Thread

Computers anyone? Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> - 2016-03-09 08:22 +0000
  Re: Computers anyone? "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2016-03-09 19:25 +1100
  Re: Computers anyone? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-09 13:41 +0000
    Re: Computers anyone? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-09 06:48 -0700
    Re: Computers anyone? Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-03-09 14:00 +0000
      Re: Computers anyone? "Sam Crean" <sg55443@gmail.com> - 2016-03-10 04:46 +1100
    Re: Computers anyone? "Sam Crean" <sg55443@gmail.com> - 2016-03-10 04:40 +1100
    Re: Computers anyone? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-03-09 13:50 -0600
    Re: Computers anyone? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-03-09 17:32 -0500
      Re: Computers anyone? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-10 13:24 +0000
        Re: Computers anyone? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-03-10 08:56 -0500
        Re: Computers anyone? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-10 07:29 -0700
          Re: Computers anyone? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-03-10 20:19 -0500
          Re: Computers anyone? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-11 13:08 +0000
            Re: Computers anyone? "Sam Crean" <sg55443@gmail.com> - 2016-03-12 04:02 +1100
              Re: Computers anyone? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-12 13:34 +0000
                Re: Computers anyone? "Sam Crean" <sg55443@gmail.com> - 2016-03-13 04:35 +1100
                Re: Computers anyone? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-03-12 15:54 -0500
                Re: Computers anyone? pechter@chuckie.(none) (William Pechter) - 2016-03-12 20:51 +0000
                Re: Computers anyone? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-03-13 07:44 +0000
                Re: Computers anyone? Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2016-04-11 17:00 -0400
                Re: Computers anyone? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:07 -0400
          Re: Computers anyone? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-03-12 15:10 -0800
          Re: Computers anyone? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-12 18:03 -0800
            Re: Computers anyone? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-12 18:34 -0800
            Re: Computers anyone? "Sam Crean" <sg55443@gmail.com> - 2016-03-13 15:28 +1100
  Re: Computers anyone? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-03-09 14:08 +0000
  Re: Computers anyone? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-09 14:41 +0000
  Re: Computers anyone? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-09 07:27 -0800
    Re: Computers anyone? Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2016-03-09 13:44 -0600
      Re: Computers anyone? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-09 20:15 +0000
      Re: Computers anyone? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-03-09 17:38 -0500
        Re: Computers anyone? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-09 17:14 -0800
          Re: Computers anyone? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-09 17:35 -0800
            Re: Computers anyone? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-03-09 21:31 -0500
              Re: Computers anyone? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-09 20:25 -0800
                Re: Computers anyone? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-10 01:55 -0700
                Re: Computers anyone? mausg@mail.com - 2016-03-10 11:47 +0000
                Re: Computers anyone? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-03-10 08:54 -0500
                Re: Computers anyone? Alan Bowler <atbowler@thinkage.ca> - 2016-03-30 12:47 -0400
                Re: Computers anyone? "Sam Crean" <sg55443@gmail.com> - 2016-03-11 04:01 +1100
                Re: Computers anyone? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-10 09:04 -0800
                Re: Computers anyone? "Sam Crean" <sg55443@gmail.com> - 2016-03-11 04:28 +1100
                Re: Computers anyone? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-10 13:44 -0800
                Re: Computers anyone? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-10 19:28 -0800
                Re: Computers anyone? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-03-11 06:16 -0500
                Re: Computers anyone? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-11 10:37 -0800
                Re: Computers anyone? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-12 12:37 -0800
                Re: Computers anyone? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-17 09:25 -0700
        Re: Computers anyone? Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-09 21:35 -0600
          Re: Computers anyone? mausg@mail.com - 2016-03-10 11:52 +0000
            Re: Computers anyone? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-03-10 08:55 -0500
        Re: Computers anyone? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-10 13:53 +0000
          Re: Computers anyone? Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2016-03-10 14:21 -0600
            Re: Computers anyone? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-10 13:17 -0800
            Re: Computers anyone? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-03-10 20:29 -0500
          Re: Computers anyone? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-03-10 20:17 -0500
      Re: Computers anyone? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-09 16:42 -0800
        Re: Computers anyone? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-03-09 20:19 -0500
  Re: Computers anyone? Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com> - 2016-03-09 12:13 -0500
    Re: Computers anyone? "Sam Crean" <sg55443@gmail.com> - 2016-03-10 04:58 +1100
      Re: Computers anyone? Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com> - 2016-03-10 06:37 -0500
  Re: Computers anyone? Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2016-03-09 13:39 -0600
    Re: Computers anyone? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-10 01:55 -0700
      Re: Computers anyone? Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-03-10 09:43 -0600
      Re: Computers anyone? Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2016-03-10 14:06 -0600
        Re: Computers anyone? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-11 13:08 +0000
        Re: Computers anyone? mausg@mail.com - 2016-03-11 14:10 +0000
          Re: Computers anyone? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-03-11 16:21 +0000
          Re: Computers anyone? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-11 17:04 -0700
            Re: Computers anyone? Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-03-12 18:04 +0000
              Re: Computers anyone? mausg@mail.com - 2016-03-12 19:32 +0000
                Re: Computers anyone? Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2016-03-21 20:17 -0400
            Re: Computers anyone? mausg@mail.com - 2016-03-12 19:30 +0000
  Re: Computers anyone? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-09 12:14 -0800
  Re: Computers anyone? hankvc@blackhole.lostwells.org (Hank) - 2016-03-12 07:34 +0000
    Re: Computers anyone? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-12 07:30 -0700

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