Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]
Groups > sci.physics > #536628
| From | gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | sci.physics |
| Subject | Re: long antenna |
| Date | 2015-11-30 20:23 -0600 |
| Organization | Aioe.org NNTP Server |
| Message-ID | <n3j0b1$tv8$1@speranza.aioe.org> (permalink) |
| References | (10 earlier) <s0juic-u98.ln1@mail.specsol.com> <n3iajn$ha2$1@speranza.aioe.org> <i0puic-at8.ln1@mail.specsol.com> <n3imr2$dn9$1@speranza.aioe.org> <pe5vic-j4a.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
On 11/30/2015 6:15 PM, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> wrote: >> On 11/30/2015 2:43 PM, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>> gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> wrote: >>>> On 11/30/2015 1:01 PM, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>>> gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> wrote: >>>>>> On 11/28/2015 4:58 PM, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>>>>> gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> On 11/27/2015 10:46 AM, benj wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 11/27/2015 02:01 AM, gilber34 wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 11/26/2015 10:45 PM, benj wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 11/26/2015 08:37 PM, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> perhaps not gamma ray, but you DO know that X-ray parabolic antennas >>>>>>>>> exist, right? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> using glancing, paraboioids and hyperboioids, not quite the same as a >>>>>>>> dish. but my point was to counter the over generalization that EM >>>>>>>> frequency being the same. Still waiting on the size of the 60 HZ dish >>>>>>>> for 20 dB gain... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pretty large, but the physical size is irrelevant; the gain of a dish >>>>>>> is a function of it's diameter in wavelengths, so the gain of a 3 lambda >>>>>>> 60 Hz dish is the same as the gain of a 3 lambda 60 GHz dish. >>>>>> >>>>>> as usual, WRONG. >>>>> >>>>> Nope. >>>>> >>>>> Then why do antenna books have nomographs of dB gain verssus physical >>>>> size with straight lines for frequency. >>>> >>>> you should stay away from them, they cause you to over-generalize >>> >>> You should look at some and learn something. >>> >>>>> >>>>>> the 60Hz dish would be 17,794,063.6 meters wide or 11,056 miles wide or >>>>>> 100 times the diameter of the Earth. Impossable to build it at all. >>>>> >>>>> Not in space given enough time and money. >>>> >>>> infinite time, infinite money, infinite stupidity, it cannot be built in >>>> space either. (extra credit for why) >>> >>> Electromagnetic theory has nothing to do with structural engineering. >> >> which EM theory ? and it is all governed by boundry conditions which is >> structural, got it ? > > There is no boundry condition for frequency, got it? > every antenna has a boundry condition on frequency band it operates in, GOT IT ? you have no specifics you just grannie troll. > >>>>> >>>>>> THE PHYSICAL SIZE IS THE ISSUE ! >>>>> >>>>> Nope. >>>>> >>>>> Physical size only determines the econonomic practicably, not the RF >>>>> characteristics. >>>> >>>> Wrong. In what bands is RF treated as primarly magnetic, treated as EM, >>>> and then treated as partical ? >>> >>> None; you are a babbling idiot. >>> >>>>> >>>>>> (what size waveguide do you feed a 60 Hz dish with ?) >>>>> >>>>> You assume due to your utter ignorance of antennas and RF in general >>>>> that all dishes are fed with waveguide; they are not. It is very >>>>> common to feed dishes in the lower microwave region and below with >>>>> coax. >>>> >>>> answer the question, what size waveguide do you feed a 60Hz dish with ? >>>> (since you say RF scales with everything) >>> >>> You assume due to your utter ignorance of antennas and RF in general >>> that all dishes are fed with waveguide; they are not. >> >> you said that I did not. > > Assumed by your repeated demand for a waveguid size. Google for it, you scale everything but waveguide size, why ? > >>> >>> It is very common to feed dishes in the lower microwave region and below >>> with coax. >> >> so what does the FEED HORN look like ? a WAVEGUIDE ? > > Yet more ignorance. > > You assume due to your utter ignorance of antennas and RF in general > that all dishes are fed with a feed horn; they are not. > > I have a very nice X band dish that is fed with a dipole. what is the pattern of a dipole ? you have a cheap splatter dish, not a good focused one. Your pattern is multilobed with high F/B ratio, and you dont know it. > >> Got anything to back you wild ass disperate hand waving up? > > Just who is desperately hand waving here? > >>> While one COULD construt 60 Hz waveguide in space, doing so would be >>> stupid. >> >> so, although you said it can be done, which I disagree with, you do >> finally agree with me, after considerable thought, that it is TOTALLY >> STUPID. > > Yes, 60 Hz waveguide is stupid and YOU are the one that brought it up. ....you talked about building one....... so you don't know you were being fooled all along. 60Hz waveguide! silly > >>>>>> your max surface roughness at 60GHz is what ? >>>>> >>>>> It is perfect because competant people were used to build it and >>>>> irrelevant to the fact that antennas scale in frequency. >>>> >>>> so what is the surface roughness ? use rms >>> >>> It is perfect because competant people were used to build it and >>> irrelevant to the fact that antennas scale in frequency. >> >> so what is the number in inches ? Can't you figure it out ? >> All you do is answer in *weazel word* vague statements like grandma >> Trollie. > > Surface roughness has nothing to do with the fact that antennas scale > in frequency. wrong, you have never made antennas. > >> is it 1/10 of an inch ? afraid of "guessing", that is all you do. > > Surface roughness is measured in wavelenths, not inches. either, it is interchangeable, but what is surface roughness, you can google it, it is ok. > >> >>> >>>> and again you are wrong, antennas scale over ranges, not infinities. >>> >>> Nowhere in any electromagnetic theory will you find anything like >>> A < frequency < B. >> >> wrong again. perhaps you should read some books first, you are too >> green to be able to add anything useful here. > > So you should be able to point to somewhere that this appears other > than in your imagination. you lack common knowledge of the names and areas of EM spectrum, you troll. > >> So What is your "electromagnetic theory" ? can you list a reference ? >> or the equations ? you have certianly missapplied them > > You might try reading the works of Fraday, Henry, Maxwell, Lorentz, > Poincare, and Einstein. you never had a college course. > > If you want a specific book, start with "Electromagnetics" by Kraus > and Carver as it is a standard text on the subject. gernic > >>> You are an ignorant idiot. >>> >>>>> >>>>>> How much beam taper do you illuminate the edges with to avoid backlobes >>>>>> at 60GHz? which would pick up the 60HZ earth very well. What would the >>>>>> F/B ratio be to pick up a 60Hz craft 1,000,000,000 miles out ? >>>>> >>>>> The same as at 60 GHz. >>>> >>>> Totally wrong, one is easy, the other is impossable. >>> >>> Nope, just not practically economical to build. >> >> wrong again, you really have to give up your idealism, as it is wrong, > > What I have is not idealism, it is called an education. > >> Answer now, what is the F/B ratio of a 60Hz dish 11,000 miles in diameter ? > > How much are you offering for me to do this? you have 5 min. Google for it. > >>>> >>>> How thick must your dish be to reflect 60Hz ? >>> >>> New flash idiot, the skin effect scales with frequency also. >> >> no, it is non linear, pupa. > > I did not say it was either linear or non-linear, I said it scales > with frequency. when something scales with another, it is linear. everybody knows that, except you. > >>>> how much beam taper ? >>> >>> Irrelevant. >> >>> >>>>> >>>>>>> The only issue with a dish at gamma or X-ray frquencies is that the >>>>>>> dish has to be made of a material that is reflective at those frequencies, >>>>>> >>>>>> which there are not any for a parabolic dish. >>>>> >>>>> Which is irrelevant to the fact that antennas scale in frequency. >>>> >>>> Wrong, because you cannot use a parabolic with gamma, so the do not scale. >>>> wrong, because you over-generalized >>> >>> All the laws of electromagnetics says it scales. The fact that there is >>> no practical material to build one is irrelevant to the theory of >>> electromagnetics. >> >> wrong, you stuck on this wrongness, things scale some, but if not into >> the real world, the do not scale. > > Electromagnetic theory scales. fish scales. > > All half wave dipoles work exactly the same no matter the physical > size because they are all a half wavelength long. > >> Does you parabolic dishes work on atoms ? > > Gibberish. from your "scaling" of your parabolic dishes, we agree you are gibberish. > >> >> and what is your "laws of electromagnetics" AND "theory of >> electromagnetics" ? > > Two way of saying the same thing, idiot. laws are not theory, and you dont know what you are talking about. > >> they are just buzzzwords to you, some EM god equation that saves your >> obviously wrong postings from smelling like poo poo. > > Oh, did I hurt your feelings by calling your ignornant nonsense ignorant > nonsense? you still offer no content, just argument, no links, just troll > >>> >>>>> >>>>> If you can find a material that is relective at gamma or X-ray frquencies, >>>>> then such a dish will perform just the same as any other dish at any >>>>> other frequency with the same diameter in wavelengths. >>>> >>>> "if" but it dosent, so a parabolic dish will not work, and has no gain. >>> >>> All the laws of electromagnetics says it scales. The fact that there is >>> no practical material to build one is irrelevant to the theory of >>> electromagnetics. >> >> it doesnt work at gamma, nor at 60 Hz, so it does not scale, your so > >> >> >>> >>>> Not scalable. >>> >>> Yep. >>> >>>>> >>>>>> what is the max surface roughness you could have ? (hint: 1/4 lamda and >>>>>> how much is that?) can anybody do that yet ? >>>>>> so you are WRONG again, find the answer in ARRL, not. >>>>> >>>>> The requirements would be the same as any other dish at any other frequency >>>>> with the same diameter in wavelengths. >>>> >>>> more foo-foo. You have not been able to justify your absurd >>>> over-generalization. >>> >>> All the laws of electromagnetics says it scales. >> >> every law ? can you list them ? > > Idiot. I am waiting, you cannot find your "All the laws of electromagnetics" yet ? Did you lose them ? try wiki > >> >>> >>>> go do that to a bicycle, one can be made at any size and still function... >>> >>> The subject is the laws of electromagnetics. >> >> no the subject is obvious misuse of scaleability . A typical problem >> Physicists have. > > Clueless. > >> >>> >>>>> >>>>> The thing you are utterly unable to understand is that electromagnetic >>>>> theory of antennas is frequency independant. >>>> >>>> wrong. antennas are resonate material structures only at certian >>>> frequiencys. >>> >>> Apples and oranges and shows an utter lack of understanding of >>> electromagnetic theory. >>> >>> A yagi antenna has a particular size in WAVELENGTHS. That means that >>> if the antenna is described in WAVELENGTHS, it works identically >>> at any frequency. >> >> wrong, it works only at that one wavelength, that is why is it called a >> resonate structure, (and odd harmonics with discrintegrating pattern) >> >> it is in your ARRL book, this is kindgarten stuff. > > It is in every book on antennas and every book on electromagnetic theory, > idiot. and yagis are resonant structures, like dipoles, monopoles, waveguides even, the work only in a limited frequency band. >> >>> >>> All half wavelength dipoles work identically because their size is >>> described in WAVELENGTHS. >> >> so where is your 60GHz 1/2 wavelength antenna ? >> or your 1/2 wavelength 60 Hz antenna ? > > Yet more meaningless babble. > cant do an equation. >>> >>>>> >>>>> The practical ability to construct a given antenna may change with >>>>> frequency, but the electromagnetic theory does NOT. >>>> >>>> wrong again. >>>> EM theory(s) applies differently to different structures, it is not >>>> one equation governs all. And is driven by boundry conditions, some >>>> scale, some do not. >>> >>> Babbling gibberish. >>> >>>> at times you have to use other means than stright EM to make the >>>> antenna work, like the capacitive match at a single helix antenna >>>> reflector, diameter of Yagi elements. >>> >>> Babbling gibberish. >>> >>> >>>> take the transmitter, receiver transmission path reciprosity, it can be >>>> non linear. EM theory says linear. >>> >>> Babbling gibberish. >>> >>>> here is a link you can study >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell's_equations >>> >>> And where in there do you see any term that looks like A < freq < B, >>> you babbling idiot? >> >> look again, there are two constants in the equations, perhaps you cannot >> read, and cannot understand equations. > > Utter nonsense. nothing, you troll. > > If such actually existed, you would be gleefully pointing it out and > crying "see, see!!" but you can't as such does not exist. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_frequency look anywhere, you oversimplify, you do not have experience, you troll.
Back to sci.physics | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread
long antenna RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-17 10:42 -0800
Re: long antenna Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-11-17 12:46 -0600
Re: long antenna Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-11-17 20:10 +0100
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-17 20:28 +0000
Re: long antenna benj <nobody@gmail.com> - 2015-11-17 16:59 -0500
Re: long antenna Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-11-18 22:56 +0100
Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-18 16:57 -0600
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-18 23:15 +0000
Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-18 20:42 -0600
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-19 05:29 +0000
Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-19 08:54 -0600
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-19 18:44 +0000
Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-22 15:32 -0600
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-22 23:16 +0000
Re: long antenna HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2015-11-19 06:59 -0800
Re: long antenna benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-19 20:02 -0500
Re: long antenna benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-19 01:36 -0500
Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-17 13:28 -0600
Re: long antenna "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-11-17 14:04 -0800
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-17 22:35 +0000
Re: long antenna benj <nobody@gmail.com> - 2015-11-17 19:28 -0500
Re: long antenna Timo <timo@physics.uq.edu.au> - 2015-11-17 17:18 -0800
Re: long antenna RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-24 11:39 -0800
Re: long antenna benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-24 15:12 -0500
Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-26 09:21 -0600
Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-26 10:05 -0600
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-26 20:05 +0000
Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-26 18:39 -0600
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-27 01:46 +0000
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-26 19:55 +0000
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-24 20:04 +0000
Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-24 16:33 -0600
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-24 22:58 +0000
Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-26 09:11 -0600
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-26 19:42 +0000
Re: long antenna "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2015-11-26 11:57 -0800
Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-26 14:52 -0600
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-26 21:12 +0000
Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-26 18:58 -0600
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-27 01:37 +0000
Re: long antenna benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-26 23:45 -0500
Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-27 01:01 -0600
Re: long antenna "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2015-11-26 23:31 -0800
Re: long antenna benj <nobody@gmail.com> - 2015-11-27 11:34 -0500
Re: long antenna "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2015-11-27 09:58 -0800
Re: long antenna benj <nobody@gmail.com> - 2015-11-27 11:46 -0500
Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-28 16:42 -0600
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-28 22:58 +0000
Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-30 07:46 -0600
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-30 19:01 +0000
Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-30 14:12 -0600
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-30 20:43 +0000
Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-30 17:41 -0600
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-12-01 00:15 +0000
Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-30 20:23 -0600
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-12-01 06:21 +0000
Re: long antenna benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-30 15:22 -0500
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-30 20:48 +0000
Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-30 17:16 -0600
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-30 23:52 +0000
Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-30 19:59 -0600
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-12-01 02:16 +0000
Re: long antenna benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-30 19:20 -0500
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-27 18:53 +0000
Re: long antenna benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-25 00:08 -0500
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-25 06:13 +0000
Re: long antenna "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-11-18 16:25 -0800
Re: long antenna "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-11-19 16:08 -0800
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-20 00:40 +0000
Re: long antenna "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-11-20 15:51 -0800
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-21 00:34 +0000
Re: long antenna jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-21 14:37 +0000
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-21 19:32 +0000
Re: long antenna jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-22 14:50 +0000
Re: long antenna "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-11-22 11:27 -0800
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-22 19:44 +0000
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-22 19:40 +0000
Re: long antenna jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-23 14:13 +0000
Re: long antenna benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-23 13:00 -0500
Re: long antenna jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-24 13:20 +0000
Re: long antenna benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-24 13:40 -0500
Re: long antenna jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-25 13:44 +0000
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-23 18:47 +0000
Re: long antenna jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-24 13:20 +0000
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-24 19:49 +0000
Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-24 16:36 -0600
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-24 23:00 +0000
Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-26 16:17 -0600
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-26 23:35 +0000
Re: long antenna benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-20 20:58 -0500
Re: long antenna benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-19 20:09 -0500
Re: long antenna "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2015-11-24 12:51 -0800
Re: long antenna benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-25 00:01 -0500
Re: long antenna "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-11-25 15:36 -0800
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-25 23:51 +0000
csiph-web