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Groups > sci.physics > #536607
| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | sci.physics |
| Subject | Re: long antenna |
| Date | 2015-12-01 00:15 +0000 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <pe5vic-j4a.ln1@mail.specsol.com> (permalink) |
| References | (9 earlier) <n3hjv2$kku$1@speranza.aioe.org> <s0juic-u98.ln1@mail.specsol.com> <n3iajn$ha2$1@speranza.aioe.org> <i0puic-at8.ln1@mail.specsol.com> <n3imr2$dn9$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> wrote: > On 11/30/2015 2:43 PM, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >> gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> wrote: >>> On 11/30/2015 1:01 PM, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>> gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> wrote: >>>>> On 11/28/2015 4:58 PM, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>>>> gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> wrote: >>>>>>> On 11/27/2015 10:46 AM, benj wrote: >>>>>>>> On 11/27/2015 02:01 AM, gilber34 wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 11/26/2015 10:45 PM, benj wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 11/26/2015 08:37 PM, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> perhaps not gamma ray, but you DO know that X-ray parabolic antennas >>>>>>>> exist, right? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> using glancing, paraboioids and hyperboioids, not quite the same as a >>>>>>> dish. but my point was to counter the over generalization that EM >>>>>>> frequency being the same. Still waiting on the size of the 60 HZ dish >>>>>>> for 20 dB gain... >>>>>> >>>>>> Pretty large, but the physical size is irrelevant; the gain of a dish >>>>>> is a function of it's diameter in wavelengths, so the gain of a 3 lambda >>>>>> 60 Hz dish is the same as the gain of a 3 lambda 60 GHz dish. >>>>> >>>>> as usual, WRONG. >>>> >>>> Nope. >>>> >>>> Then why do antenna books have nomographs of dB gain verssus physical >>>> size with straight lines for frequency. >>> >>> you should stay away from them, they cause you to over-generalize >> >> You should look at some and learn something. >> >>>> >>>>> the 60Hz dish would be 17,794,063.6 meters wide or 11,056 miles wide or >>>>> 100 times the diameter of the Earth. Impossable to build it at all. >>>> >>>> Not in space given enough time and money. >>> >>> infinite time, infinite money, infinite stupidity, it cannot be built in >>> space either. (extra credit for why) >> >> Electromagnetic theory has nothing to do with structural engineering. > > which EM theory ? and it is all governed by boundry conditions which is > structural, got it ? There is no boundry condition for frequency, got it? >>>> >>>>> THE PHYSICAL SIZE IS THE ISSUE ! >>>> >>>> Nope. >>>> >>>> Physical size only determines the econonomic practicably, not the RF >>>> characteristics. >>> >>> Wrong. In what bands is RF treated as primarly magnetic, treated as EM, >>> and then treated as partical ? >> >> None; you are a babbling idiot. >> >>>> >>>>> (what size waveguide do you feed a 60 Hz dish with ?) >>>> >>>> You assume due to your utter ignorance of antennas and RF in general >>>> that all dishes are fed with waveguide; they are not. It is very >>>> common to feed dishes in the lower microwave region and below with >>>> coax. >>> >>> answer the question, what size waveguide do you feed a 60Hz dish with ? >>> (since you say RF scales with everything) >> >> You assume due to your utter ignorance of antennas and RF in general >> that all dishes are fed with waveguide; they are not. > > you said that I did not. Assumed by your repeated demand for a waveguid size. >> >> It is very common to feed dishes in the lower microwave region and below >> with coax. > > so what does the FEED HORN look like ? a WAVEGUIDE ? Yet more ignorance. You assume due to your utter ignorance of antennas and RF in general that all dishes are fed with a feed horn; they are not. I have a very nice X band dish that is fed with a dipole. > Got anything to back you wild ass disperate hand waving up? Just who is desperately hand waving here? >> While one COULD construt 60 Hz waveguide in space, doing so would be >> stupid. > > so, although you said it can be done, which I disagree with, you do > finally agree with me, after considerable thought, that it is TOTALLY > STUPID. Yes, 60 Hz waveguide is stupid and YOU are the one that brought it up. >>>>> your max surface roughness at 60GHz is what ? >>>> >>>> It is perfect because competant people were used to build it and >>>> irrelevant to the fact that antennas scale in frequency. >>> >>> so what is the surface roughness ? use rms >> >> It is perfect because competant people were used to build it and >> irrelevant to the fact that antennas scale in frequency. > > so what is the number in inches ? Can't you figure it out ? > All you do is answer in *weazel word* vague statements like grandma > Trollie. Surface roughness has nothing to do with the fact that antennas scale in frequency. > is it 1/10 of an inch ? afraid of "guessing", that is all you do. Surface roughness is measured in wavelenths, not inches. > >> >>> and again you are wrong, antennas scale over ranges, not infinities. >> >> Nowhere in any electromagnetic theory will you find anything like >> A < frequency < B. > > wrong again. perhaps you should read some books first, you are too > green to be able to add anything useful here. So you should be able to point to somewhere that this appears other than in your imagination. > So What is your "electromagnetic theory" ? can you list a reference ? > or the equations ? you have certianly missapplied them You might try reading the works of Fraday, Henry, Maxwell, Lorentz, Poincare, and Einstein. If you want a specific book, start with "Electromagnetics" by Kraus and Carver as it is a standard text on the subject. >> You are an ignorant idiot. >> >>>> >>>>> How much beam taper do you illuminate the edges with to avoid backlobes >>>>> at 60GHz? which would pick up the 60HZ earth very well. What would the >>>>> F/B ratio be to pick up a 60Hz craft 1,000,000,000 miles out ? >>>> >>>> The same as at 60 GHz. >>> >>> Totally wrong, one is easy, the other is impossable. >> >> Nope, just not practically economical to build. > > wrong again, you really have to give up your idealism, as it is wrong, What I have is not idealism, it is called an education. > Answer now, what is the F/B ratio of a 60Hz dish 11,000 miles in diameter ? How much are you offering for me to do this? >>> >>> How thick must your dish be to reflect 60Hz ? >> >> New flash idiot, the skin effect scales with frequency also. > > no, it is non linear, pupa. I did not say it was either linear or non-linear, I said it scales with frequency. >>> how much beam taper ? >> >> Irrelevant. > >> >>>> >>>>>> The only issue with a dish at gamma or X-ray frquencies is that the >>>>>> dish has to be made of a material that is reflective at those frequencies, >>>>> >>>>> which there are not any for a parabolic dish. >>>> >>>> Which is irrelevant to the fact that antennas scale in frequency. >>> >>> Wrong, because you cannot use a parabolic with gamma, so the do not scale. >>> wrong, because you over-generalized >> >> All the laws of electromagnetics says it scales. The fact that there is >> no practical material to build one is irrelevant to the theory of >> electromagnetics. > > wrong, you stuck on this wrongness, things scale some, but if not into > the real world, the do not scale. Electromagnetic theory scales. All half wave dipoles work exactly the same no matter the physical size because they are all a half wavelength long. > Does you parabolic dishes work on atoms ? Gibberish. > > and what is your "laws of electromagnetics" AND "theory of > electromagnetics" ? Two way of saying the same thing, idiot. > they are just buzzzwords to you, some EM god equation that saves your > obviously wrong postings from smelling like poo poo. Oh, did I hurt your feelings by calling your ignornant nonsense ignorant nonsense? >> >>>> >>>> If you can find a material that is relective at gamma or X-ray frquencies, >>>> then such a dish will perform just the same as any other dish at any >>>> other frequency with the same diameter in wavelengths. >>> >>> "if" but it dosent, so a parabolic dish will not work, and has no gain. >> >> All the laws of electromagnetics says it scales. The fact that there is >> no practical material to build one is irrelevant to the theory of >> electromagnetics. > > it doesnt work at gamma, nor at 60 Hz, so it does not scale, your so > > >> >>> Not scalable. >> >> Yep. >> >>>> >>>>> what is the max surface roughness you could have ? (hint: 1/4 lamda and >>>>> how much is that?) can anybody do that yet ? >>>>> so you are WRONG again, find the answer in ARRL, not. >>>> >>>> The requirements would be the same as any other dish at any other frequency >>>> with the same diameter in wavelengths. >>> >>> more foo-foo. You have not been able to justify your absurd >>> over-generalization. >> >> All the laws of electromagnetics says it scales. > > every law ? can you list them ? Idiot. > >> >>> go do that to a bicycle, one can be made at any size and still function... >> >> The subject is the laws of electromagnetics. > > no the subject is obvious misuse of scaleability . A typical problem > Physicists have. Clueless. > >> >>>> >>>> The thing you are utterly unable to understand is that electromagnetic >>>> theory of antennas is frequency independant. >>> >>> wrong. antennas are resonate material structures only at certian >>> frequiencys. >> >> Apples and oranges and shows an utter lack of understanding of >> electromagnetic theory. >> >> A yagi antenna has a particular size in WAVELENGTHS. That means that >> if the antenna is described in WAVELENGTHS, it works identically >> at any frequency. > > wrong, it works only at that one wavelength, that is why is it called a > resonate structure, (and odd harmonics with discrintegrating pattern) > > it is in your ARRL book, this is kindgarten stuff. It is in every book on antennas and every book on electromagnetic theory, idiot. > >> >> All half wavelength dipoles work identically because their size is >> described in WAVELENGTHS. > > so where is your 60GHz 1/2 wavelength antenna ? > or your 1/2 wavelength 60 Hz antenna ? Yet more meaningless babble. >> >>>> >>>> The practical ability to construct a given antenna may change with >>>> frequency, but the electromagnetic theory does NOT. >>> >>> wrong again. >>> EM theory(s) applies differently to different structures, it is not >>> one equation governs all. And is driven by boundry conditions, some >>> scale, some do not. >> >> Babbling gibberish. >> >>> at times you have to use other means than stright EM to make the >>> antenna work, like the capacitive match at a single helix antenna >>> reflector, diameter of Yagi elements. >> >> Babbling gibberish. >> >> >>> take the transmitter, receiver transmission path reciprosity, it can be >>> non linear. EM theory says linear. >> >> Babbling gibberish. >> >>> here is a link you can study >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell's_equations >> >> And where in there do you see any term that looks like A < freq < B, >> you babbling idiot? > > look again, there are two constants in the equations, perhaps you cannot > read, and cannot understand equations. Utter nonsense. If such actually existed, you would be gleefully pointing it out and crying "see, see!!" but you can't as such does not exist. -- Jim Pennino
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long antenna RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-17 10:42 -0800
Re: long antenna Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-11-17 12:46 -0600
Re: long antenna Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-11-17 20:10 +0100
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-17 20:28 +0000
Re: long antenna benj <nobody@gmail.com> - 2015-11-17 16:59 -0500
Re: long antenna Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-11-18 22:56 +0100
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Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-18 20:42 -0600
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Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-17 13:28 -0600
Re: long antenna "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-11-17 14:04 -0800
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Re: long antenna benj <nobody@gmail.com> - 2015-11-17 19:28 -0500
Re: long antenna Timo <timo@physics.uq.edu.au> - 2015-11-17 17:18 -0800
Re: long antenna RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-24 11:39 -0800
Re: long antenna benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-24 15:12 -0500
Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-26 09:21 -0600
Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-26 10:05 -0600
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Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-26 18:39 -0600
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Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-24 16:33 -0600
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-24 22:58 +0000
Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-26 09:11 -0600
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-26 19:42 +0000
Re: long antenna "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2015-11-26 11:57 -0800
Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-26 14:52 -0600
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Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-27 01:01 -0600
Re: long antenna "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2015-11-26 23:31 -0800
Re: long antenna benj <nobody@gmail.com> - 2015-11-27 11:34 -0500
Re: long antenna "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2015-11-27 09:58 -0800
Re: long antenna benj <nobody@gmail.com> - 2015-11-27 11:46 -0500
Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-28 16:42 -0600
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-28 22:58 +0000
Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-30 07:46 -0600
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-30 19:01 +0000
Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-30 14:12 -0600
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-30 20:43 +0000
Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-30 17:41 -0600
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-12-01 00:15 +0000
Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-30 20:23 -0600
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-12-01 06:21 +0000
Re: long antenna benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-30 15:22 -0500
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-30 20:48 +0000
Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-30 17:16 -0600
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-30 23:52 +0000
Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-30 19:59 -0600
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-12-01 02:16 +0000
Re: long antenna benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-30 19:20 -0500
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-27 18:53 +0000
Re: long antenna benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-25 00:08 -0500
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-25 06:13 +0000
Re: long antenna "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-11-18 16:25 -0800
Re: long antenna "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-11-19 16:08 -0800
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-20 00:40 +0000
Re: long antenna "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-11-20 15:51 -0800
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-21 00:34 +0000
Re: long antenna jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-21 14:37 +0000
Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-21 19:32 +0000
Re: long antenna jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-22 14:50 +0000
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Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-22 19:44 +0000
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Re: long antenna benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-25 00:01 -0500
Re: long antenna "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-11-25 15:36 -0800
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