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Re: long antenna

From jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com
Newsgroups sci.physics
Subject Re: long antenna
Date 2015-11-27 01:37 +0000
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <1ookic-uq4.ln1@mail.specsol.com> (permalink)
References (7 earlier) <n377fg$5f6$1@speranza.aioe.org> <ru3kic-ul2.ln1@mail.specsol.com> <n37rf3$12p$1@speranza.aioe.org> <l69kic-a73.ln1@mail.specsol.com> <n389sn$8v6$1@speranza.aioe.org>

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gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> wrote:
> On 11/26/2015 3:12 PM, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>> gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> wrote:
>>> On 11/26/2015 1:42 PM, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>> gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 11/24/2015 4:58 PM, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>>> gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 11/24/2015 2:04 PM, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On November 17, Timo wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> The idea that making an antenna longer makes it work better comes from
>>>>>>>>>>> AM radios and car whips where the antenna is much much shorter than
>>>>>>>>>>> wavelength and in that case making it longer often DOES make it work
>>>>>>>>>>> better.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It can help, even when the antenna is larger than the wavelength:
>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arecibo_Observatory
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Comparing dish vs. wire antenna, is apples vs. oranges.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But typically one wants to pay more attention to design than just
>>>>>>>>>> "long extension wire".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> More dish area will collect more signal power, but
>>>>>>>>> apparently this doesn't apply to a wire.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A dish doesn't collect anything, it concentrates energy to a point.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> wrong again.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> a dish is a reflector which changes signal phase over an area, where it
>>>>>>> adds in phase is called the focus.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And the focal point is where the energy is concentrated.
>>>>>
>>>>> wrong, it is where the signals add in phase.
>>>>
>>>> What is the energy density in the region of the focus with no reflector?
>>>>
>>>> What is the energy density in the region of the focus with a reflector?
>>>
>>> you ask for energy density w/wo reflector.  you can find that on google.
>>
>> Nope. It depends on the ERP of the transmitting station and the propagation
>> characteristics between the two points.
> 
> you over complicate it, no need for transmitting station foo foo or 
> probagation losses bla bla.
> 
> Hint: What is energy density "ratio", w/wo reflector.  (assume dipole if 
> you must)

Yet again you show you haven't a clue what is going on.


>> Normalize it for analysis, if you know what that means.
>>
>>> What size and type of reflector ?
>>
>> Any size and any type; pick one.
> 
> again you forget frequency,
> Frequency 60 Hz, reflector=dish, gain 20 DBi,
> you calculate Dish size

Yet again you show you haven't a clue what is going on.

>>> what shape is the reflector required to have and why ?
>>
>> Any rational shape you desire.
> 
> no! shape parabolic, go study equations, they are not hard, I cannot do 
> this for you.

Yet again you show you haven't a clue what is going on.

>>
>>> in terms of signal travel time or phase ?
>>
> 
>>
>>> Did you know you can make a flat C band "reflector" out of different
>>> length beer cans ?  All the cans do is reflect and change the phase do
>>> to length.
>>
>> It is not a reflector, it is a horn.
> 
> not a horn, again you eyes play tricks on you brain.
> the reflector is made up of about 200 beer cans, attached together and 
> mostly flat, like a freznel lens. Cans are cut to length for the phase 
> change needed. but this is beyond your experience, sorry.

Yet again you show you haven't a clue what is going on.

>> FYI people have been making horn feeds from various cans for well over
>> 60 years now.
> 
> feed horns, not reflectors.   I had a modified paint can feed horn tuned 
> to 1.4 to 1.6 GHz with a VSWR of 1.05 a long time ago.

Yet again you show you haven't a clue what is going on.

> 
>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parabolic_antenna
>>>>
>>>> Again, get a copy of the ARRL handbook and read it.
>>>
>>> no need to.
>>
>>
>> You didn't read the Wiki link either, did you, or you wouldn't have
>> posted the babbling gibberish below.
> 
> wiki worse than amatuer ARRL.

Both are far better than you word salad babble.

>>>>
>>>>> you thinking magnifying lens as in optics,
>>>>>    like when you were burning ants on sidewalk
>>>>>
>>>>> it is not that way in RF or Microwave.
>>>>
>>>> Light, RF, and microwave are ALL electromagnetic radiation.
> 
>>> the solutions are vastly different in the bands. Gamma?  X-ray ?
>>> Parabolic antennas are phase changers, from 700MHz to 40GHz.
>>> does your parabolic work on gamma ? or 200GHz ?
>>
>> Babbling gibberish.
>>
>> Whether of not a parabolic antenna works or not is purely a function
>> of it's size in wavelengths.
> 
> wrong again, how do you make it work on Gamma rays ?  or x-rays ?
> or 60 Hz ?

Yet again you show you haven't a clue what is going on.

> try to be specific and provide answers, instead of the red herring 
> clue-less bone throwing
> 
>>
>>
>>
>>>>>>> "concentrate" is what they do to Orange Juice.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> concentrate verb
> 
>>>>>> to bring or come together in a large number or amount in one particular
>>>>>> area
> 
>>>>>> Again, get a copy of the ARRL handbook and stop being so ignorant.
>>>>>
>>>>> you base you knowledge on an out of date, stale, amateurish, Amateur
>>>>> Radio book
>>>>
>>>> Nope, but if YOU were to read the 2015 edition, you might lose some
>>>> of your ignorance about the basics of RF, such as light and microwaves
>>>> being different and what a reflector in an antenna system does.
>>>
>>> forget ARRL, that is kindagarden,
>>
>> Then you must be pre-school.
>>
>>>   move to "Antennas" by Kraus immediatly, then read "Antennas for all
>>> Applications" by Kraus, then read "Radio Astronomy" by Kraus
>>> seems like some should be online, public domain stuff.
>>
>> I actually have a job and buy books.
> 
> ok, you got Kraus in you libarary ? (any of them?)

Did you mean to say, "do you have Kraus in your library?"

If so, yes, and many others, but that doesn't fix your ignorance
of RF.

>>
>>> and they have all the  equations to design your own.
>>
>> I've been designing antennas that actually work for about about 50
>> years now.
> 
> they are fun to design and make, I did a tribander for police car in UHF 
> and 800 MHz bands.  but uW are more fun.

Word salad babble. 800 MHz is UHF.

> ever see the insides of the dome of the Omnitracs system ? clever design 
> there. (trucking industry, communicates and gets location from 
> stattilites, qualcomm in SD)
 
Whoopdee fucking do; so you are tourist.

You are also ignorant in regards to RF in general and antennas in particular.
 

-- 
Jim Pennino

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Thread

long antenna RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-17 10:42 -0800
  Re: long antenna Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-11-17 12:46 -0600
    Re: long antenna Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-11-17 20:10 +0100
    Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-17 20:28 +0000
      Re: long antenna benj <nobody@gmail.com> - 2015-11-17 16:59 -0500
    Re: long antenna Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-11-18 22:56 +0100
      Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-18 16:57 -0600
        Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-18 23:15 +0000
          Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-18 20:42 -0600
            Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-19 05:29 +0000
              Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-19 08:54 -0600
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-19 18:44 +0000
                Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-22 15:32 -0600
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-22 23:16 +0000
            Re: long antenna HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2015-11-19 06:59 -0800
              Re: long antenna benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-19 20:02 -0500
      Re: long antenna benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-19 01:36 -0500
  Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-17 13:28 -0600
  Re: long antenna "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-11-17 14:04 -0800
    Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-17 22:35 +0000
      Re: long antenna benj <nobody@gmail.com> - 2015-11-17 19:28 -0500
        Re: long antenna Timo <timo@physics.uq.edu.au> - 2015-11-17 17:18 -0800
          Re: long antenna RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-24 11:39 -0800
            Re: long antenna benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-24 15:12 -0500
              Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-26 09:21 -0600
                Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-26 10:05 -0600
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-26 20:05 +0000
                Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-26 18:39 -0600
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-27 01:46 +0000
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-26 19:55 +0000
            Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-24 20:04 +0000
              Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-24 16:33 -0600
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-24 22:58 +0000
                Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-26 09:11 -0600
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-26 19:42 +0000
                Re: long antenna "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2015-11-26 11:57 -0800
                Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-26 14:52 -0600
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-26 21:12 +0000
                Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-26 18:58 -0600
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-27 01:37 +0000
                Re: long antenna benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-26 23:45 -0500
                Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-27 01:01 -0600
                Re: long antenna "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2015-11-26 23:31 -0800
                Re: long antenna benj <nobody@gmail.com> - 2015-11-27 11:34 -0500
                Re: long antenna "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2015-11-27 09:58 -0800
                Re: long antenna benj <nobody@gmail.com> - 2015-11-27 11:46 -0500
                Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-28 16:42 -0600
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-28 22:58 +0000
                Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-30 07:46 -0600
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-30 19:01 +0000
                Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-30 14:12 -0600
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-30 20:43 +0000
                Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-30 17:41 -0600
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-12-01 00:15 +0000
                Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-30 20:23 -0600
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-12-01 06:21 +0000
                Re: long antenna benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-30 15:22 -0500
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-30 20:48 +0000
                Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-30 17:16 -0600
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-30 23:52 +0000
                Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-30 19:59 -0600
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-12-01 02:16 +0000
                Re: long antenna benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-30 19:20 -0500
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-27 18:53 +0000
              Re: long antenna benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-25 00:08 -0500
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-25 06:13 +0000
  Re: long antenna "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-11-18 16:25 -0800
  Re: long antenna "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-11-19 16:08 -0800
    Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-20 00:40 +0000
      Re: long antenna "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-11-20 15:51 -0800
        Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-21 00:34 +0000
          Re: long antenna jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-21 14:37 +0000
            Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-21 19:32 +0000
              Re: long antenna jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-22 14:50 +0000
                Re: long antenna "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-11-22 11:27 -0800
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-22 19:44 +0000
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-22 19:40 +0000
                Re: long antenna jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-23 14:13 +0000
                Re: long antenna benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-23 13:00 -0500
                Re: long antenna jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-24 13:20 +0000
                Re: long antenna benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-24 13:40 -0500
                Re: long antenna jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-25 13:44 +0000
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-23 18:47 +0000
                Re: long antenna jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-24 13:20 +0000
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-24 19:49 +0000
                Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-24 16:36 -0600
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-24 23:00 +0000
                Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-26 16:17 -0600
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-26 23:35 +0000
        Re: long antenna benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-20 20:58 -0500
    Re: long antenna benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-19 20:09 -0500
  Re: long antenna "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2015-11-24 12:51 -0800
    Re: long antenna benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-25 00:01 -0500
  Re: long antenna "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-11-25 15:36 -0800
    Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-25 23:51 +0000

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