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Groups > sci.physics > #536662
| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | sci.physics |
| Subject | Re: long antenna |
| Date | 2015-12-01 06:21 +0000 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <asqvic-vdc.ln1@mail.specsol.com> (permalink) |
| References | (9 earlier) <n3iajn$ha2$1@speranza.aioe.org> <i0puic-at8.ln1@mail.specsol.com> <n3imr2$dn9$1@speranza.aioe.org> <pe5vic-j4a.ln1@mail.specsol.com> <n3j0b1$tv8$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> wrote: > On 11/30/2015 6:15 PM, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >> gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> wrote: >>> On 11/30/2015 2:43 PM, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>> gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> wrote: >>>>> On 11/30/2015 1:01 PM, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>>>> gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> wrote: >>>>>>> On 11/28/2015 4:58 PM, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>>>>>> gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 11/27/2015 10:46 AM, benj wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 11/27/2015 02:01 AM, gilber34 wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 11/26/2015 10:45 PM, benj wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/26/2015 08:37 PM, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> perhaps not gamma ray, but you DO know that X-ray parabolic antennas >>>>>>>>>> exist, right? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> using glancing, paraboioids and hyperboioids, not quite the same as a >>>>>>>>> dish. but my point was to counter the over generalization that EM >>>>>>>>> frequency being the same. Still waiting on the size of the 60 HZ dish >>>>>>>>> for 20 dB gain... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Pretty large, but the physical size is irrelevant; the gain of a dish >>>>>>>> is a function of it's diameter in wavelengths, so the gain of a 3 lambda >>>>>>>> 60 Hz dish is the same as the gain of a 3 lambda 60 GHz dish. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> as usual, WRONG. >>>>>> >>>>>> Nope. >>>>>> >>>>>> Then why do antenna books have nomographs of dB gain verssus physical >>>>>> size with straight lines for frequency. >>>>> >>>>> you should stay away from them, they cause you to over-generalize >>>> >>>> You should look at some and learn something. >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> the 60Hz dish would be 17,794,063.6 meters wide or 11,056 miles wide or >>>>>>> 100 times the diameter of the Earth. Impossable to build it at all. >>>>>> >>>>>> Not in space given enough time and money. >>>>> >>>>> infinite time, infinite money, infinite stupidity, it cannot be built in >>>>> space either. (extra credit for why) >>>> >>>> Electromagnetic theory has nothing to do with structural engineering. >>> >>> which EM theory ? and it is all governed by boundry conditions which is >>> structural, got it ? >> >> There is no boundry condition for frequency, got it? >> > > every antenna has a boundry condition on frequency band it operates in, > GOT IT ? Every antenna defined in physical units, i.e. meters, has boundary conditions, but an antenna defined in terms of wavelength does NOT, GOT IT? A half wave dipole is defined in terms of wavelengths and has no "boundarys" until it is physically constructed in physical, i.e. meters, GOT IT? > you have no specifics you just grannie troll. Gibberish. >>>>>> >>>>>>> THE PHYSICAL SIZE IS THE ISSUE ! >>>>>> >>>>>> Nope. >>>>>> >>>>>> Physical size only determines the econonomic practicably, not the RF >>>>>> characteristics. >>>>> >>>>> Wrong. In what bands is RF treated as primarly magnetic, treated as EM, >>>>> and then treated as partical ? >>>> >>>> None; you are a babbling idiot. >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> (what size waveguide do you feed a 60 Hz dish with ?) >>>>>> >>>>>> You assume due to your utter ignorance of antennas and RF in general >>>>>> that all dishes are fed with waveguide; they are not. It is very >>>>>> common to feed dishes in the lower microwave region and below with >>>>>> coax. >>>>> >>>>> answer the question, what size waveguide do you feed a 60Hz dish with ? >>>>> (since you say RF scales with everything) >>>> >>>> You assume due to your utter ignorance of antennas and RF in general >>>> that all dishes are fed with waveguide; they are not. >>> >>> you said that I did not. >> >> Assumed by your repeated demand for a waveguid size. > > Google for it, you scale everything but waveguide size, why ? Sigh, like EVERYTHING ELSE, waveguide defined by wavelengths is frequency independant. It is ONLY when physical units, i.e. meters, are assigned that waveguide becomes frequency dependant, GOT IT? >> >>>> >>>> It is very common to feed dishes in the lower microwave region and below >>>> with coax. >>> >>> so what does the FEED HORN look like ? a WAVEGUIDE ? >> >> Yet more ignorance. >> >> You assume due to your utter ignorance of antennas and RF in general >> that all dishes are fed with a feed horn; they are not. >> >> I have a very nice X band dish that is fed with a dipole. > > what is the pattern of a dipole ? > you have a cheap splatter dish, not a good focused one. > Your pattern is multilobed with high F/B ratio, and you dont know it. Actually I have the manufacturers pattern for it and everything you say is nonsense, except it does have a high F/B ratio, which is a desirable feature, GOT IT? >> >>> Got anything to back you wild ass disperate hand waving up? >> >> Just who is desperately hand waving here? >> >>>> While one COULD construt 60 Hz waveguide in space, doing so would be >>>> stupid. >>> >>> so, although you said it can be done, which I disagree with, you do >>> finally agree with me, after considerable thought, that it is TOTALLY >>> STUPID. >> >> Yes, 60 Hz waveguide is stupid and YOU are the one that brought it up. No, YOU are the one that brought up waveguide, GOT IT? > ....you talked about building one....... so you don't know you were > being fooled all along. 60Hz waveguide! silly Babbling idiot, GOT IT? >>>>>>> your max surface roughness at 60GHz is what ? >>>>>> >>>>>> It is perfect because competant people were used to build it and >>>>>> irrelevant to the fact that antennas scale in frequency. >>>>> >>>>> so what is the surface roughness ? use rms >>>> >>>> It is perfect because competant people were used to build it and >>>> irrelevant to the fact that antennas scale in frequency. >>> >>> so what is the number in inches ? Can't you figure it out ? >>> All you do is answer in *weazel word* vague statements like grandma >>> Trollie. >> >> Surface roughness has nothing to do with the fact that antennas scale >> in frequency. > > wrong, you have never made antennas. I have been making antennas since about 1960, GOT IT? You haven't a clue, GOT IT? >>> is it 1/10 of an inch ? afraid of "guessing", that is all you do. >> >> Surface roughness is measured in wavelenths, not inches. > > either, it is interchangeable, but what is surface roughness, you can > google it, it is ok. No, it is NOT interchangeable, it is wavelength dependant, GOT IT? >>> >>>> >>>>> and again you are wrong, antennas scale over ranges, not infinities. >>>> >>>> Nowhere in any electromagnetic theory will you find anything like >>>> A < frequency < B. >>> >>> wrong again. perhaps you should read some books first, you are too >>> green to be able to add anything useful here. >> >> So you should be able to point to somewhere that this appears other >> than in your imagination. > > you lack common knowledge of the names and areas of EM spectrum, you troll. Babbling gibberish, GOT IT? > >> >>> So What is your "electromagnetic theory" ? can you list a reference ? >>> or the equations ? you have certianly missapplied them >> >> You might try reading the works of Fraday, Henry, Maxwell, Lorentz, >> Poincare, and Einstein. > > you never had a college course. Do you think I am going to post my degree, idiot? You never had a technician course, idiot. >> >> If you want a specific book, start with "Electromagnetics" by Kraus >> and Carver as it is a standard text on the subject. > > gernic Of course it is generic, idiot. >> >>>> You are an ignorant idiot. >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> How much beam taper do you illuminate the edges with to avoid backlobes >>>>>>> at 60GHz? which would pick up the 60HZ earth very well. What would the >>>>>>> F/B ratio be to pick up a 60Hz craft 1,000,000,000 miles out ? >>>>>> >>>>>> The same as at 60 GHz. >>>>> >>>>> Totally wrong, one is easy, the other is impossable. >>>> >>>> Nope, just not practically economical to build. >>> >>> wrong again, you really have to give up your idealism, as it is wrong, >> >> What I have is not idealism, it is called an education. >> >>> Answer now, what is the F/B ratio of a 60Hz dish 11,000 miles in diameter ? >> >> How much are you offering for me to do this? > > you have 5 min. Google for it. No pay, no play, idiot. >> >>>>> >>>>> How thick must your dish be to reflect 60Hz ? >>>> >>>> New flash idiot, the skin effect scales with frequency also. >>> >>> no, it is non linear, pupa. >> >> I did not say it was either linear or non-linear, I said it scales >> with frequency. > > when something scales with another, it is linear. everybody knows that, > except you. Wrong again, idiot. The area of a circle scales with the square of the radius, that is NOT linear, idiot. Perhaps the issue is that not only are you technically ignorant, you are also functionally illiterate, idiot. >> >>>>> how much beam taper ? >>>> >>>> Irrelevant. >>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> The only issue with a dish at gamma or X-ray frquencies is that the >>>>>>>> dish has to be made of a material that is reflective at those frequencies, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> which there are not any for a parabolic dish. >>>>>> >>>>>> Which is irrelevant to the fact that antennas scale in frequency. >>>>> >>>>> Wrong, because you cannot use a parabolic with gamma, so the do not scale. >>>>> wrong, because you over-generalized >>>> >>>> All the laws of electromagnetics says it scales. The fact that there is >>>> no practical material to build one is irrelevant to the theory of >>>> electromagnetics. >>> >>> wrong, you stuck on this wrongness, things scale some, but if not into >>> the real world, the do not scale. >> >> Electromagnetic theory scales. > > fish scales. More gibberish of an idiot. >> >> All half wave dipoles work exactly the same no matter the physical >> size because they are all a half wavelength long. >> >>> Does you parabolic dishes work on atoms ? >> >> Gibberish. > > from your "scaling" of your parabolic dishes, > we agree you are gibberish. Yet more gibberish of an idiot. >>> >>> and what is your "laws of electromagnetics" AND "theory of >>> electromagnetics" ? >> >> Two way of saying the same thing, idiot. > > laws are not theory, and you dont know what you are talking about. Just so stupid on so many levels the mind boggles. >> >>> they are just buzzzwords to you, some EM god equation that saves your >>> obviously wrong postings from smelling like poo poo. >> >> Oh, did I hurt your feelings by calling your ignornant nonsense ignorant >> nonsense? > > you still offer no content, just argument, no links, just troll I offered several resources which you refuse to use, idiot. There is much more to the real world thank "links", idiot. Obviously you are one of those ass clowns that only knows what can be found with Google, and even then you don't understand the material, idiot. >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> If you can find a material that is relective at gamma or X-ray frquencies, >>>>>> then such a dish will perform just the same as any other dish at any >>>>>> other frequency with the same diameter in wavelengths. >>>>> >>>>> "if" but it dosent, so a parabolic dish will not work, and has no gain. >>>> >>>> All the laws of electromagnetics says it scales. The fact that there is >>>> no practical material to build one is irrelevant to the theory of >>>> electromagnetics. >>> >>> it doesnt work at gamma, nor at 60 Hz, so it does not scale, your so >> >>> >>> >>>> >>>>> Not scalable. >>>> >>>> Yep. >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> what is the max surface roughness you could have ? (hint: 1/4 lamda and >>>>>>> how much is that?) can anybody do that yet ? >>>>>>> so you are WRONG again, find the answer in ARRL, not. >>>>>> >>>>>> The requirements would be the same as any other dish at any other frequency >>>>>> with the same diameter in wavelengths. >>>>> >>>>> more foo-foo. You have not been able to justify your absurd >>>>> over-generalization. >>>> >>>> All the laws of electromagnetics says it scales. >>> >>> every law ? can you list them ? >> >> Idiot. > > I am waiting, you cannot find your "All the laws of electromagnetics" > yet ? Did you lose them ? try wiki Do you REALLY expect me to type in what amounts to two years of college level courses? >>> >>>> >>>>> go do that to a bicycle, one can be made at any size and still function... >>>> >>>> The subject is the laws of electromagnetics. >>> >>> no the subject is obvious misuse of scaleability . A typical problem >>> Physicists have. >> >> Clueless. >> >>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> The thing you are utterly unable to understand is that electromagnetic >>>>>> theory of antennas is frequency independant. >>>>> >>>>> wrong. antennas are resonate material structures only at certian >>>>> frequiencys. >>>> >>>> Apples and oranges and shows an utter lack of understanding of >>>> electromagnetic theory. >>>> >>>> A yagi antenna has a particular size in WAVELENGTHS. That means that >>>> if the antenna is described in WAVELENGTHS, it works identically >>>> at any frequency. >>> >>> wrong, it works only at that one wavelength, that is why is it called a >>> resonate structure, (and odd harmonics with discrintegrating pattern) >>> >>> it is in your ARRL book, this is kindgarten stuff. >> >> It is in every book on antennas and every book on electromagnetic theory, >> idiot. > > and yagis are resonant structures, like dipoles, monopoles, waveguides > even, the work only in a limited frequency band. When defined in physical units such as meters, but NOT when defined in wavelengths, idiot. > >>> >>>> >>>> All half wavelength dipoles work identically because their size is >>>> described in WAVELENGTHS. >>> >>> so where is your 60GHz 1/2 wavelength antenna ? >>> or your 1/2 wavelength 60 Hz antenna ? >> >> Yet more meaningless babble. >> > > cant do an equation. A half wavelength dipole is half a wavelength long, idiot. >>>>>> >>>>>> The practical ability to construct a given antenna may change with >>>>>> frequency, but the electromagnetic theory does NOT. >>>>> >>>>> wrong again. >>>>> EM theory(s) applies differently to different structures, it is not >>>>> one equation governs all. And is driven by boundry conditions, some >>>>> scale, some do not. >>>> >>>> Babbling gibberish. >>>> >>>>> at times you have to use other means than stright EM to make the >>>>> antenna work, like the capacitive match at a single helix antenna >>>>> reflector, diameter of Yagi elements. >>>> >>>> Babbling gibberish. >>>> >>>> >>>>> take the transmitter, receiver transmission path reciprosity, it can be >>>>> non linear. EM theory says linear. >>>> >>>> Babbling gibberish. >>>> >>>>> here is a link you can study >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell's_equations >>>> >>>> And where in there do you see any term that looks like A < freq < B, >>>> you babbling idiot? >>> >>> look again, there are two constants in the equations, perhaps you cannot >>> read, and cannot understand equations. >> >> Utter nonsense. > > nothing, you troll. Gibberish. >> >> If such actually existed, you would be gleefully pointing it out and >> crying "see, see!!" but you can't as such does not exist. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_frequency Non sequitur, idiot. > look anywhere, you oversimplify, you do not have experience, you troll. You are the one making simplified, and incorrect statments, idiot. -- Jim Pennino
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