Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #364003

Re: SR is just another name for LET

From	wugi <brol@brol.be>
Newsgroups	sci.physics.relativity
Subject	Re: SR is just another name for LET
Date	2015-09-13 21:15 +0200
Organization	Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID	<mt4i30$eje$1@speranza.aioe.org> (permalink)
References	(3 earlier) <Ob6dnWTTC6Kpn3DInZ2dnUU7_8ydnZ2d@giganews.com> <55EDAABE.9030101@comcast.net> <330a6ad2-a6e3-473e-91fd-c6f8063b6a53@googlegroups.com> <mt1f5d$ki2$1@speranza.aioe.org> <NqCdnRIxbKeI5WnInZ2dnUU7_82dnZ2d@giganews.com>

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Tom Roberts schreef op 12/09/2015 om 21:08:
> On 9/12/15 9/12/15   10:07 AM, wugi wrote:
>> rotchm schreef op 7/09/2015 om 17:39:
>>> In LET, there is a "material" contraction of matter (objects) by the
>>> gamma
>>> factor. There is also a "physical" slowing of clocks by the same factor
>>> [...]
>>
>> I take it that in SR they are as well "material" and "physical" ;-)
>
> Not at all! And this is not merely "interpretation".
>
> In SR, "length contraction" and "time dilation" are merely results of
> the appropriate GEOMETRICAL PROJECTIONS. In particular, no material
> object is ever "modified" or "changed" by them.

I agree that the object is not (differently) modified by (different) 
observers passing by.
But I don't agree that their measurements are mere projections. They are 
true physical manifestations of the object in the diverse frames. It's 
like scanning different slices of a 3D object: these are true physical 
quantities and not mere projections, however the object itself is not 
changed by any chosen set of slices.

>      Just THINK about it: if multiple observers pass by a given
>      object with multiple speeds, they must observe multiple
>      "time dilation" and "length contractions" of it, but how
>      could the object possibly undergo multiple "physical changes"
>      at once??? Indeed, how could an observer passing by possibly
>      "change" the object itself???

Indeed not. But consider this:
compare two identical rods passing by each other. Consider rod 1, OL 
being at rest and rod 2, OL' passing by so that at a rod 1's given 
moment the two rods coincide in O. At that moment rod 1 covers OL and 
rod 2 OL'= OL/gamma, Lorentz-wise.

Rod 1 considers rod 2's back being in O while rod 2's front arrives in 
L', a position *before* it arrives in L, so that OL'<OL.

Due to relativity of simultaneity, rod 2 considers itself in an 
instantaneous state along OL", L" being a position reached *after* its 
front has passed L, and so that OL=OL"/gamma, again Lorentz-wise.

-----O------------L---------
-----O---------L'-----L"---->

Now, a 'Galilean' object OL could instantly be swapped from "rest state" 
in "motion state", without physically rearranging itself (apart from 
suffering instant acceleration forces). One simply swaps from a 
non-moving OL to a moving OL.

But a relativistic object cannot, and could not, instantly be 
'transposed' from a rest state OL to a moving state OL' viz. OL", 
without some physical rearranging. This is not treated in SR, but see 
our dialogue about relativistic acceleration, and Born rigid motion, in 
the Bell's spaceship thread.

All this does not alter the "rest state" each objects finds itself in, 
*once* it reaches an inertial motion, so this counts for your statement 
that an object keeps true, unchanged, to its rest state and this one 
does not depend on observing passers by.
But in between different inertial motions, or between 'identical' 
objects in different inertial motion states, real physical changes occur 
and they are not "mere projections" of an unaltered state.

-- 
guido

Thread

SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-06 09:18 -0700
  Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-06 09:26 -0700
    Re: SR is just another name for LET kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-06 12:53 -0400
    Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-06 11:38 -0700
      Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-06 15:25 -0700
      Re: SR is just another name for LET "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2015-09-06 17:16 -0700
        Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <set...@att.net> - 2015-09-07 01:39 +0000
        Re: SR is just another name for LET moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2015-09-07 02:44 +0000
          Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-06 19:56 -0700
  Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-06 10:00 -0700
    Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-06 11:50 -0700
      Re: SR is just another name for LET kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-06 15:24 -0400
        Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-06 12:47 -0700
      Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-06 13:25 -0700
  Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-06 18:33 -0500
    Re: SR is just another name for LET Mike Fontenot <mlfasf@comcast.net> - 2015-09-06 17:52 -0600
      Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-06 17:55 -0700
        Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-06 18:47 -0700
      Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-06 22:19 -0500
        Re: SR is just another name for LET Mike Fontenot <mlfasf@comcast.net> - 2015-09-07 09:18 -0600
          Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 08:39 -0700
            Re: SR is just another name for LET Mike Fontenot <mlfasf@comcast.net> - 2015-09-07 10:05 -0600
              Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 09:34 -0700
                Pretender Stephane Baune strikes again. "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2015-09-07 12:10 -0700
              Re: SR is just another name for LET Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-09-07 21:48 +0200
            Re: SR is just another name for LET kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-07 12:37 -0400
              Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 09:53 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-07 13:13 -0400
                Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 10:24 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-07 14:42 -0400
                Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 13:06 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-07 16:50 -0400
                Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 14:23 -0700
            Re: SR is just another name for LET wugi <brol@brol.be> - 2015-09-12 17:07 +0200
              Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-12 14:08 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Frances Espinosa <franesp@portio.org> - 2015-09-12 20:07 +0000
                Re: SR is just another name for LET JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2015-09-12 13:50 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Frances Espinosa <franesp@portio.org> - 2015-09-12 21:25 +0000
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2015-09-13 10:21 +0200
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-12 19:45 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-13 06:00 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-13 09:14 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-13 09:12 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-13 16:34 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-14 12:50 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-14 16:20 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2015-09-14 23:26 +0200
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Frances Espinosa <franesp@portio.org> - 2015-09-14 22:36 +0000
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-15 07:01 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-15 09:11 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-15 08:00 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-15 10:15 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-15 13:40 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-15 16:21 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-16 06:28 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-16 11:15 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-16 11:36 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-16 16:22 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-16 19:03 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-17 08:18 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-17 10:32 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-17 08:43 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-17 12:16 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-16 19:04 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-17 08:20 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-17 07:09 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-16 16:21 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-15 08:30 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-15 14:43 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-15 06:51 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-15 09:10 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2015-09-13 20:49 +0200
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2015-09-14 00:20 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Frances Espinosa <franesp@portio.org> - 2015-09-13 14:37 +0000
                Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-13 11:17 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET wugi <brol@brol.be> - 2015-09-13 21:15 +0200
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-13 15:46 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-14 09:17 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2015-09-14 00:16 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-14 03:53 -0400
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-14 07:15 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-14 11:12 -0400
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-14 10:18 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-14 16:37 -0400
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-14 12:55 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-14 11:13 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2015-09-14 22:08 +0200
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2015-09-14 23:25 -0700
              Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-12 14:03 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET wugi <brol@brol.be> - 2015-09-15 18:42 +0200
                Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-15 11:46 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET wugi <brol@brol.be> - 2015-09-16 16:10 +0200
                Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-16 08:15 -0700
          Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-07 10:38 -0700
            Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 12:55 -0700
          Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-08 10:23 -0500
            Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-08 09:29 -0700
            Re: SR is just another name for LET Mike Fontenot <mlfasf@comcast.net> - 2015-09-08 10:44 -0600
              Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-08 10:11 -0700
                Stephane Baune poser strikes again "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2015-09-08 11:30 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Mike Fontenot <mlfasf@comcast.net> - 2015-09-08 12:50 -0600
                Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-08 12:23 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Mike Fontenot <mlfasf@comcast.net> - 2015-09-08 13:46 -0600
                Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-08 13:02 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Mike Fontenot <mlfasf@comcast.net> - 2015-09-08 15:27 -0600
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-09 09:10 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-09 08:05 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-10 23:52 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-11 08:33 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-11 13:53 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-11 14:11 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-10 23:50 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Mike Fontenot <mlfasf@comcast.net> - 2015-09-11 11:02 -0600
                Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-08 13:26 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-10 23:39 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2015-09-10 23:00 -0700
              Re: SR is just another name for LET Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-09-08 20:47 +0200
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-08 14:23 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Mike Fontenot <mlfasf@comcast.net> - 2015-09-08 15:36 -0600
          Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-08 13:55 -0500
        Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-07 10:58 -0700
          Re: SR is just another name for LET kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-07 14:56 -0400
            Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-07 12:29 -0700
              Re: SR is just another name for LET kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-07 16:39 -0400
                Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-08 10:05 -0700
    Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-06 17:35 -0700
      Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-06 22:22 -0500
        Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-07 06:21 -0700
          Re: SR is just another name for LET kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-07 09:35 -0400
            Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 06:42 -0700
          Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-08 13:38 -0500
          Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-08 13:39 -0500
            Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-09 08:36 -0700
              Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-09 10:50 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-09 20:23 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-09 20:30 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-10 08:01 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-11 09:53 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-11 12:07 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-11 10:54 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-11 14:24 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-11 14:48 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-11 16:48 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-12 06:10 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-13 22:13 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-11 10:45 -0700
      Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-08 13:35 -0500
        Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-09 08:41 -0700
  SR is just another name for LET fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-09-16 06:50 -0700
    Re: SR is just another name for LET kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-16 10:59 -0400
      Re: SR is just another name for LET fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-09-16 11:24 -0700

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