Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #363489

Re: SR is just another name for LET

From	Mike Fontenot <mlfasf@comcast.net>
Newsgroups	sci.physics.relativity
Subject	Re: SR is just another name for LET
Date	2015-09-08 12:50 -0600
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<55EF2E01.6020407@comcast.net> (permalink)
References	(3 earlier) <Ob6dnWTTC6Kpn3DInZ2dnUU7_8ydnZ2d@giganews.com> <55EDAABE.9030101@comcast.net> <5fadnYl6Lq7KYHPInZ2dnUU7_8ydnZ2d@giganews.com> <55EF1052.7020705@comcast.net> <4996849d-8a03-4d9a-998f-0716d48aad35@googlegroups.com>

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On 9/8/15 11:11 AM, rotchm wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 at 12:44:05 PM UTC-4, Mike_Fontenot wrote:
>
>> In LET, the Lorentz equation derivation
>> doesn't assume anything about what the moving frame concludes about the
>> ether frame.  But that then means that IF we can invert those two
>> equations, and get X and T as functions of x and t, then those inverse
>> equations will tell us what a moving (inertial) frame will conclude
>> about the ether frame.
>
> You might think so, but if you look closely, all conspires that you can never solve
> for the ether's X and T. This is why, "we dont need the ether frame" as Einstein
> pointed (and as pointed out by Poincare, before Einstein!) out.  We only have access
> to (x,t) via measurements.  You cant find the v thus there exist infinite possibilities
> for X and T.
>

What I was trying to get at, was that I THINK Lorentz arrived at the 
Lorentz equations WITHOUT assuming at the outset that any two inertial 
observers who were moving relative to one another would each come to the 
SAME conclusions about the other observer's clocks and rods.  I may be 
wrong about that ... it's been a LONG time since I read about how 
Lorentz arrived at those equations.  But I think I do remember reading 
that Lorentz didn't get it right the first time ... as I remember it, he 
initially included length contraction, but not time dilation.  It seems 
clear that, in THAT form, the equations wouldn't have had the property 
that the inverse of the equations were essentially the same as the 
equations themselves ... so at that stage, he wouldn't have thought each 
of two relatively-moving inertial observers would come to the same 
conclusions about the other observer's position and time coordinates. 
On the other hand, Einstein DID assume reciprocity (along with the 
assumption that any light pulse would always be measured to have the 
same speed c) to drive the Lorentz equations, without having to assume 
the existence of an ether.  So I suspect their derivations were 
different, even though the ultimate equations which resulted from those 
derivations were exactly the same.  I think it may have been a complete 
surprise to Lorentz that the inverse of his equations would be 
essentially the same as the original equations themselves, and therefore 
that observers moving wrt the ether would think that it was the 
ether-frame clocks and rods that were the ones which were slowed and 
contracted.  And I think Lorentz may have (at least initially) thought 
that it should be possible to identify the ether frame.  But I may well 
be wrong about that, and about the history of Lorentz' derivation of his 
equations.

-- 
   https://sites.google.com/site/cadoequation/cado-reference-frame
   All you ever need to know about the twin "paradox".

Thread

SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-06 09:18 -0700
  Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-06 09:26 -0700
    Re: SR is just another name for LET kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-06 12:53 -0400
    Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-06 11:38 -0700
      Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-06 15:25 -0700
      Re: SR is just another name for LET "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2015-09-06 17:16 -0700
        Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <set...@att.net> - 2015-09-07 01:39 +0000
        Re: SR is just another name for LET moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2015-09-07 02:44 +0000
          Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-06 19:56 -0700
  Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-06 10:00 -0700
    Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-06 11:50 -0700
      Re: SR is just another name for LET kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-06 15:24 -0400
        Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-06 12:47 -0700
      Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-06 13:25 -0700
  Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-06 18:33 -0500
    Re: SR is just another name for LET Mike Fontenot <mlfasf@comcast.net> - 2015-09-06 17:52 -0600
      Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-06 17:55 -0700
        Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-06 18:47 -0700
      Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-06 22:19 -0500
        Re: SR is just another name for LET Mike Fontenot <mlfasf@comcast.net> - 2015-09-07 09:18 -0600
          Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 08:39 -0700
            Re: SR is just another name for LET Mike Fontenot <mlfasf@comcast.net> - 2015-09-07 10:05 -0600
              Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 09:34 -0700
                Pretender Stephane Baune strikes again. "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2015-09-07 12:10 -0700
              Re: SR is just another name for LET Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-09-07 21:48 +0200
            Re: SR is just another name for LET kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-07 12:37 -0400
              Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 09:53 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-07 13:13 -0400
                Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 10:24 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-07 14:42 -0400
                Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 13:06 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-07 16:50 -0400
                Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 14:23 -0700
            Re: SR is just another name for LET wugi <brol@brol.be> - 2015-09-12 17:07 +0200
              Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-12 14:08 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Frances Espinosa <franesp@portio.org> - 2015-09-12 20:07 +0000
                Re: SR is just another name for LET JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2015-09-12 13:50 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Frances Espinosa <franesp@portio.org> - 2015-09-12 21:25 +0000
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2015-09-13 10:21 +0200
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-12 19:45 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-13 06:00 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-13 09:14 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-13 09:12 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-13 16:34 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-14 12:50 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-14 16:20 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2015-09-14 23:26 +0200
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Frances Espinosa <franesp@portio.org> - 2015-09-14 22:36 +0000
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-15 07:01 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-15 09:11 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-15 08:00 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-15 10:15 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-15 13:40 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-15 16:21 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-16 06:28 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-16 11:15 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-16 11:36 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-16 16:22 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-16 19:03 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-17 08:18 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-17 10:32 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-17 08:43 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-17 12:16 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-16 19:04 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-17 08:20 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-17 07:09 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-16 16:21 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-15 08:30 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-15 14:43 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-15 06:51 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-15 09:10 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2015-09-13 20:49 +0200
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2015-09-14 00:20 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Frances Espinosa <franesp@portio.org> - 2015-09-13 14:37 +0000
                Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-13 11:17 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET wugi <brol@brol.be> - 2015-09-13 21:15 +0200
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-13 15:46 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-14 09:17 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2015-09-14 00:16 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-14 03:53 -0400
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-14 07:15 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-14 11:12 -0400
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-14 10:18 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-14 16:37 -0400
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-14 12:55 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-14 11:13 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2015-09-14 22:08 +0200
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2015-09-14 23:25 -0700
              Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-12 14:03 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET wugi <brol@brol.be> - 2015-09-15 18:42 +0200
                Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-15 11:46 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET wugi <brol@brol.be> - 2015-09-16 16:10 +0200
                Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-16 08:15 -0700
          Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-07 10:38 -0700
            Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 12:55 -0700
          Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-08 10:23 -0500
            Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-08 09:29 -0700
            Re: SR is just another name for LET Mike Fontenot <mlfasf@comcast.net> - 2015-09-08 10:44 -0600
              Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-08 10:11 -0700
                Stephane Baune poser strikes again "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2015-09-08 11:30 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Mike Fontenot <mlfasf@comcast.net> - 2015-09-08 12:50 -0600
                Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-08 12:23 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Mike Fontenot <mlfasf@comcast.net> - 2015-09-08 13:46 -0600
                Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-08 13:02 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Mike Fontenot <mlfasf@comcast.net> - 2015-09-08 15:27 -0600
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-09 09:10 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-09 08:05 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-10 23:52 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-11 08:33 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-11 13:53 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-11 14:11 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-10 23:50 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Mike Fontenot <mlfasf@comcast.net> - 2015-09-11 11:02 -0600
                Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-08 13:26 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-10 23:39 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2015-09-10 23:00 -0700
              Re: SR is just another name for LET Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-09-08 20:47 +0200
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-08 14:23 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Mike Fontenot <mlfasf@comcast.net> - 2015-09-08 15:36 -0600
          Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-08 13:55 -0500
        Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-07 10:58 -0700
          Re: SR is just another name for LET kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-07 14:56 -0400
            Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-07 12:29 -0700
              Re: SR is just another name for LET kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-07 16:39 -0400
                Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-08 10:05 -0700
    Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-06 17:35 -0700
      Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-06 22:22 -0500
        Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-07 06:21 -0700
          Re: SR is just another name for LET kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-07 09:35 -0400
            Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 06:42 -0700
          Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-08 13:38 -0500
          Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-08 13:39 -0500
            Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-09 08:36 -0700
              Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-09 10:50 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-09 20:23 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-09 20:30 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-10 08:01 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-11 09:53 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-11 12:07 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-11 10:54 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-11 14:24 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-11 14:48 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-11 16:48 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-12 06:10 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-13 22:13 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-11 10:45 -0700
      Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-08 13:35 -0500
        Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-09 08:41 -0700
  SR is just another name for LET fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-09-16 06:50 -0700
    Re: SR is just another name for LET kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-16 10:59 -0400
      Re: SR is just another name for LET fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-09-16 11:24 -0700

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