Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #363474

Re: SR is just another name for LET

From	Mike Fontenot <mlfasf@comcast.net>
Newsgroups	sci.physics.relativity
Subject	Re: SR is just another name for LET
Date	2015-09-08 10:44 -0600
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<55EF1052.7020705@comcast.net> (permalink)
References	(1 earlier) <9uOdndVwnvXNUHHInZ2dnUU7_82dnZ2d@giganews.com> <55ECD1CF.80705@comcast.net> <Ob6dnWTTC6Kpn3DInZ2dnUU7_8ydnZ2d@giganews.com> <55EDAABE.9030101@comcast.net> <5fadnYl6Lq7KYHPInZ2dnUU7_8ydnZ2d@giganews.com>

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On 9/8/15 9:23 AM, Tom Roberts wrote:
>
> [...]
>

rotchm's comments seem to be closest to resolving the confusion I was 
having about Michelson-Morley.  I had heard somewhere that M/M found 
that the earth was always at rest wrt the ether, and so that was my 
(erroneous) starting point, and I now think that view of what M/M showed 
was incorrect.  I now think M/M showed that any light beam always has 
the same speed c when measured wrt the earth.  That obviously is 
consistent with special relativity, but it is ALSO consistent with LET, 
whether the earth is moving wrt the ether or not.  So the M/M results 
didn't actually invalidate either SR or LET, and it didn't show that the 
earth was always at rest wrt the ether.

I've also thought more about WHY the M/M results were consistent with 
LET, even if the earth was moving wrt the ether, and I think I know the 
answer to that: when you take the observer frame in LET to be the ether 
frame, and when you assume that any light beam always will be measured 
to have the same speed c wrt the ether, and that rods in a moving frame 
are ACTUALLY compressed as per the length contraction result (along the 
direction of motion), and that clocks in the moving frame are ACTUALLY 
running slow as per the time dilation result, then you get the Lorentz 
equations, which give the moving coordinates x and t as functions of the 
ether coordinates X and T.  In LET, the Lorentz equation derivation 
doesn't assume anything about what the moving frame concludes about the 
ether frame.  But that then means that IF we can invert those two 
equations, and get X and T as functions of x and t, then those inverse 
equations will tell us what a moving (inertial) frame will conclude 
about the ether frame.  Those original equations CAN always be inverted, 
and the unusual thing about the inverse equations is that they always 
are essentially the SAME as the original equations (usually with only 
the speed v changing sign).  So a moving frame concludes that rods in 
the ether frame contract according to the length contraction result, and 
that clocks in the ether frame run slow according to the time dilation 
result.  And those inverse equations also say that the speed of any 
light beam will always be measured to have the same value c.  So M/M 
definitely did not say that the earth was always at rest wrt the ether.

Of course, even though SR and LET both get the same results for all 
experiments (because they both are completely specified for all 
experimental purposes by the same Lorentz equations), their EXPLANATIONS 
are quite different: LET says that only the moving frames ACTUALLY have 
length contraction, and actually have time dilation, and that the ether 
frame is the only frame that ACTUALLY has NO length contraction, and 
ACTUALLY has NO time dilation ... the moving frames (because of their 
motion-affected rods and clocks just erroneously THINK the ether frame 
has those characteristics.

-- 
   https://sites.google.com/site/cadoequation/cado-reference-frame
   All you ever need to know about the twin "paradox".

Thread

SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-06 09:18 -0700
  Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-06 09:26 -0700
    Re: SR is just another name for LET kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-06 12:53 -0400
    Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-06 11:38 -0700
      Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-06 15:25 -0700
      Re: SR is just another name for LET "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2015-09-06 17:16 -0700
        Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <set...@att.net> - 2015-09-07 01:39 +0000
        Re: SR is just another name for LET moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2015-09-07 02:44 +0000
          Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-06 19:56 -0700
  Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-06 10:00 -0700
    Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-06 11:50 -0700
      Re: SR is just another name for LET kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-06 15:24 -0400
        Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-06 12:47 -0700
      Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-06 13:25 -0700
  Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-06 18:33 -0500
    Re: SR is just another name for LET Mike Fontenot <mlfasf@comcast.net> - 2015-09-06 17:52 -0600
      Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-06 17:55 -0700
        Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-06 18:47 -0700
      Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-06 22:19 -0500
        Re: SR is just another name for LET Mike Fontenot <mlfasf@comcast.net> - 2015-09-07 09:18 -0600
          Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 08:39 -0700
            Re: SR is just another name for LET Mike Fontenot <mlfasf@comcast.net> - 2015-09-07 10:05 -0600
              Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 09:34 -0700
                Pretender Stephane Baune strikes again. "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2015-09-07 12:10 -0700
              Re: SR is just another name for LET Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-09-07 21:48 +0200
            Re: SR is just another name for LET kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-07 12:37 -0400
              Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 09:53 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-07 13:13 -0400
                Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 10:24 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-07 14:42 -0400
                Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 13:06 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-07 16:50 -0400
                Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 14:23 -0700
            Re: SR is just another name for LET wugi <brol@brol.be> - 2015-09-12 17:07 +0200
              Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-12 14:08 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Frances Espinosa <franesp@portio.org> - 2015-09-12 20:07 +0000
                Re: SR is just another name for LET JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2015-09-12 13:50 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Frances Espinosa <franesp@portio.org> - 2015-09-12 21:25 +0000
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2015-09-13 10:21 +0200
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-12 19:45 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-13 06:00 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-13 09:14 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-13 09:12 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-13 16:34 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-14 12:50 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-14 16:20 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2015-09-14 23:26 +0200
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Frances Espinosa <franesp@portio.org> - 2015-09-14 22:36 +0000
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-15 07:01 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-15 09:11 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-15 08:00 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-15 10:15 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-15 13:40 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-15 16:21 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-16 06:28 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-16 11:15 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-16 11:36 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-16 16:22 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-16 19:03 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-17 08:18 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-17 10:32 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-17 08:43 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-17 12:16 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-16 19:04 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-17 08:20 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-17 07:09 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-16 16:21 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-15 08:30 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-15 14:43 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-15 06:51 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-15 09:10 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2015-09-13 20:49 +0200
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2015-09-14 00:20 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Frances Espinosa <franesp@portio.org> - 2015-09-13 14:37 +0000
                Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-13 11:17 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET wugi <brol@brol.be> - 2015-09-13 21:15 +0200
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-13 15:46 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-14 09:17 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2015-09-14 00:16 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-14 03:53 -0400
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-14 07:15 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-14 11:12 -0400
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-14 10:18 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-14 16:37 -0400
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-14 12:55 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-14 11:13 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2015-09-14 22:08 +0200
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2015-09-14 23:25 -0700
              Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-12 14:03 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET wugi <brol@brol.be> - 2015-09-15 18:42 +0200
                Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-15 11:46 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET wugi <brol@brol.be> - 2015-09-16 16:10 +0200
                Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-16 08:15 -0700
          Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-07 10:38 -0700
            Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 12:55 -0700
          Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-08 10:23 -0500
            Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-08 09:29 -0700
            Re: SR is just another name for LET Mike Fontenot <mlfasf@comcast.net> - 2015-09-08 10:44 -0600
              Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-08 10:11 -0700
                Stephane Baune poser strikes again "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2015-09-08 11:30 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Mike Fontenot <mlfasf@comcast.net> - 2015-09-08 12:50 -0600
                Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-08 12:23 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Mike Fontenot <mlfasf@comcast.net> - 2015-09-08 13:46 -0600
                Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-08 13:02 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Mike Fontenot <mlfasf@comcast.net> - 2015-09-08 15:27 -0600
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-09 09:10 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-09 08:05 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-10 23:52 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-11 08:33 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-11 13:53 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-11 14:11 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-10 23:50 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Mike Fontenot <mlfasf@comcast.net> - 2015-09-11 11:02 -0600
                Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-08 13:26 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-10 23:39 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2015-09-10 23:00 -0700
              Re: SR is just another name for LET Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-09-08 20:47 +0200
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-08 14:23 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Mike Fontenot <mlfasf@comcast.net> - 2015-09-08 15:36 -0600
          Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-08 13:55 -0500
        Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-07 10:58 -0700
          Re: SR is just another name for LET kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-07 14:56 -0400
            Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-07 12:29 -0700
              Re: SR is just another name for LET kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-07 16:39 -0400
                Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-08 10:05 -0700
    Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-06 17:35 -0700
      Re: SR is just another name for LET Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-06 22:22 -0500
        Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-07 06:21 -0700
          Re: SR is just another name for LET kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-07 09:35 -0400
            Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 06:42 -0700
          Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-08 13:38 -0500
          Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-08 13:39 -0500
            Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-09 08:36 -0700
              Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-09 10:50 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-09 20:23 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-09 20:30 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-10 08:01 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-11 09:53 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-11 12:07 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-11 10:54 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-11 14:24 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET alsor@interia.pl - 2015-09-11 14:48 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-11 16:48 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-12 06:10 -0700
                Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-13 22:13 -0500
                Re: SR is just another name for LET rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-11 10:45 -0700
      Re: SR is just another name for LET Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-08 13:35 -0500
        Re: SR is just another name for LET kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-09-09 08:41 -0700
  SR is just another name for LET fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-09-16 06:50 -0700
    Re: SR is just another name for LET kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-16 10:59 -0400
      Re: SR is just another name for LET fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-09-16 11:24 -0700

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