Re: Why Johnny can?t code

From	scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us (Scott Alfter)
Newsgroups	comp.misc
Subject	Re: Why Johnny can?t code
Date	2014-09-02 15:17 +0000
Organization	USS Voyager NCC-74656, Delta Quadrant
Message-ID	<lu4n2l$isp$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	<jCWo060GWCUx8svQg454q6sz@dont-email.me> <020920141223320871%timstreater@greenbee.net> <lu4bto$o3j$2@dont-email.me> <87d2be3zow.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

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In article <87d2be3zow.fsf@bsb.me.uk>,
Ben Bacarisse  <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> wrote:
>Rich <rich@example.invalid> writes:
>> Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
>>> BASIC is rubbish: AVOID.
>>
>> Some of us classify PHP into that rubbish bin as well.
>
>It's a big bin, but I'd rather all "that's rubbish too" remarks be
>accompanied with a "I think it should be X".  I've seen lots of possible
>Xs mentioned, but I have no experience of them.  Maybe this thread will
>point to a front-runner?
>
>When I was teaching introductory programming (not, I confess, to
>children or even young adults, but to postgraduate students) I used a
>simple graphics library that I'd written.  The students could then get
>programs that did interesting things very quickly while learning about
>functions, variables, loops and so on.  Trouble is, the system was not
>interactive since the mandated language was C++.
>
>Graphics was key to BASIC's success, and I think would be key to any
>successful teaching system.  Everyone likes graphics.  It shows
>programming to be the creative experience it is, and yet it gives you
>instant and dramatic feedback when you get things wrong.

It seems the usual approach with most languages these days is to provide
only minimal functionality with the language itself and put most of the
interesting stuff (graphics, etc.) in libraries that must first be invoked
before you can use them.  There are plenty of good reasons for this kind of
separation, but it makes things more difficult for someone who's just
getting started.

Maybe one approach would be to have kids start out with computers the way
you started out with computers: pick your favorite 8-bit platform, find an
emulator for it, and let your kids have at it.  It might still end up being
the fastest way to deliver an experience where they can type in something
like this:

HGR:FOR I=0 TO 1 STEP 0:HCOLOR=RND(1)*8:HPLOT RND(1)*280,RND(1)*160 TO 
RND(1)*280,RND(1)*160:NEXT I

and get something right away.  The only other possibly interactive
programming language with graphics capability that comes to mind is
PostScript, but that's about all that it does.

  _/_
 / v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( http://alfter.us/            Top-posting!
 \_^_/                              >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

Thread

Why Johnny can?t code Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-09-02 10:02 +0000
  Re: Why Johnny can?t code Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-09-02 12:23 +0100
    Re: Why Johnny can?t code Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2014-09-02 14:43 +0100
      Re: Why Johnny can?t code Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-09-02 16:40 +0200
        Re: Why Johnny can?t code Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2014-09-03 12:43 +1000
      Re: Why Johnny can?t code scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us (Scott Alfter) - 2014-09-02 15:17 +0000
        Re: Why Johnny can?t code RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2014-09-02 18:24 +0000
          Re: Why Johnny can?t code Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-09-02 21:01 +0000
          Re: Why Johnny can?t code greymaus <greymausg@mail.com> - 2014-09-03 14:55 +0000
            Re: Why Johnny can?t code Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-09-03 18:04 +0100
            Re: Why Johnny can?t code Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2014-09-03 14:38 -0400
              Re: Why Johnny can?t code Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-09-03 19:55 +0000
                Re: Why Johnny can?t code Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2014-09-03 17:33 -0400
                Re: Why Johnny can?t code Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-09-03 21:35 +0000
                Re: Why Johnny can?t code scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us (Scott Alfter) - 2014-09-04 15:24 +0000
                Re: Why Johnny can?t code Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-09-04 20:17 +0000
        Re: Why Johnny can?t code Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-09-02 18:56 +0000
        Re: Why Johnny can?t code Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-09-03 20:59 +0200
      Re: Why Johnny can?t code Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-09-02 18:45 +0000
        Re: Why Johnny can?t code Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2014-09-02 20:50 +0100
          Re: Why Johnny can?t code Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-09-03 21:05 +0200
    Re: Why Johnny can?t code Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-09-02 16:56 +0200
      Re: Why Johnny can?t code Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-09-02 16:09 +0100
    Re: Why Johnny can?t code Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2014-09-04 14:57 +0000
      Re: Why Johnny can?t code Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> - 2014-09-04 15:24 +0000
        Re: Why Johnny can't code Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2014-09-05 02:33 -0300
  Re: Why Johnny can?t code Will Honea <whonea@whonea.net> - 2014-09-02 14:08 -0600
    Re: Why Johnny can?t code Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-09-02 20:55 +0000
    Re: Why Johnny can?t code Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> - 2014-09-02 21:02 +0000
      Re: Why Johnny can?t code Will Honea <whonea@whonea.net> - 2014-09-02 23:07 -0600
        Re: Why Johnny can?t code Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> - 2014-09-04 10:58 +0000
          Re: Why Johnny can?t code Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-09-04 11:09 +0000
            Re: Why Johnny can?t code Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> - 2014-09-04 11:17 +0000
              Re: Why Johnny can?t code Will Honea <whonea@whonea.net> - 2014-09-04 22:58 -0600
                Re: Why Johnny can?t code Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> - 2014-09-05 11:38 +0000
                Re: Why Johnny can?t code Will Honea <whonea@whonea.net> - 2014-09-05 13:55 -0600
                Re: Why Johnny can?t code Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> - 2014-09-05 20:02 +0000
          Re: Why Johnny can?t code Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-09-04 14:28 +0300
          Re: Why Johnny can?t code RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> - 2014-09-04 20:27 +0100
            Re: Why Johnny can?t code Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> - 2014-09-04 19:55 +0000
              Re: Why Johnny can?t code Will Honea <whonea@whonea.net> - 2014-09-04 22:50 -0600
                Re: Why Johnny can?t code Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> - 2014-09-05 11:37 +0000
                Re: Why Johnny can?t code Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-09-05 13:05 +0100
                Re: Why Johnny can?t code Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> - 2014-09-05 15:22 +0000
                Re: Why Johnny can?t code Will Honea <whonea@whonea.net> - 2014-09-05 13:48 -0600
                Re: Why Johnny can?t code Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> - 2014-09-05 20:09 +0000
  Re: Why Johnny can?t code Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2014-09-03 12:26 +1000
  Re: Why Johnny can?t code Bruce Horrocks <07.013@scorecrow.com> - 2014-09-04 00:34 +0100
  Re: Why Johnny can?t code Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2014-09-04 15:01 +0000

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