Re: Why Johnny can?t code

From	Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx>
Newsgroups	comp.misc
Subject	Re: Why Johnny can?t code
Date	2014-09-04 19:55 +0000
Message-ID	<c6rudoF1r0bU5@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References	(1 earlier) <wtpNv.60359$Y4.11270@fx24.iad> <c6mpiqF1eqaU25@mid.individual.net> <lmxNv.210456$4%3.175442@fx10.iad> <c6quu4F1r0bU2@mid.individual.net> <I7CdnZQjZZGAIJXJnZ2dnUVZ7qidnZ2d@bt.com>

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On Thu, 04 Sep 2014 20:27:25 +0100, RJH wrote:

> On 04/09/2014 11:58, Bob Eager wrote:
>> On Tue, 02 Sep 2014 23:07:25 -0600, Will Honea wrote:
>>
>>> Bob Eager wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hear hear. I cringe when I hear this 'we are going to teach CODING'
>>>> stuff on TV. Cart before the horse indeed.
>>>>
>>> First thing I've seen from you in a loooong time, Bob.
>>
>> I mainly frequent UK groups...and alt.sys and comp.*.bsd ..!
>>
>>> Here in the US we are in the midst of re-inventing education - again.
>>
>> Same here. Worst exam results for years, although they are probably
>> more accurate assessments.
>>
>>
> We seem to be witnessing increased grades in my ex-poly UK university.
> You can probably guess why.
> 
>>> I
>>> convinced the wife to retire before this latest hair-brained scheme to
>>> implement a national "common core" with money support to the schools
>>> doing best on a set of standardized tests is implemented. Somehow, the
>>> notion that education can accomplish nothing more than teaching the
>>> skills necessary to producing a student with the tools to learn what
>>> interests him/her has been lost.  That skill I can teach; I've never
>>> "learned" a student anything.
>>
>> Exactly. This obsession with 'coding' seems to be the equivalent of
>> teaching someone to lay bricks without teaching them where or in what
>> configuration they need to lay them...
>>
>>
> I do agree, but only to a point. I strongly believe you need to make the
> students aware of what's out there, and introduce them to different ways
> of thinking about it. So in your example, you do need to teach them
> about laying, and introduce them to a variety of bonds, mortars, bricks
> and so on (you can tell I've never laid a brick!), and the pros and
> cons.

I think I chose a bad analogy!

> Once they can describe, they can analyse. Once they can analyse, they
> can form an opinion. We can't, or rather shouldn't, teach opinion. IMHO.

In CS, the analysis needs to come before the coding, although I can see 
that *some* coding might be a good idea, as you say. They trouble is I 
have seen little evidence of them going back and learning the preliminary 
problem solving skills.

> For a variety of reasons, I see teaching going in a more case study,
> narrative driven direction. At least in my field of social sciences.
> Less theory, less history/contexts, less knowledge of basic concepts and
> structures. Drives me up the wall!
> 
> Not sure if we're agreeing or not . . .

Probably! We tend to teach some theory, present a problem and require a 
solution. 



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Thread

Why Johnny can?t code Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-09-02 10:02 +0000
  Re: Why Johnny can?t code Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-09-02 12:23 +0100
    Re: Why Johnny can?t code Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2014-09-02 14:43 +0100
      Re: Why Johnny can?t code Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-09-02 16:40 +0200
        Re: Why Johnny can?t code Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2014-09-03 12:43 +1000
      Re: Why Johnny can?t code scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us (Scott Alfter) - 2014-09-02 15:17 +0000
        Re: Why Johnny can?t code RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2014-09-02 18:24 +0000
          Re: Why Johnny can?t code Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-09-02 21:01 +0000
          Re: Why Johnny can?t code greymaus <greymausg@mail.com> - 2014-09-03 14:55 +0000
            Re: Why Johnny can?t code Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-09-03 18:04 +0100
            Re: Why Johnny can?t code Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2014-09-03 14:38 -0400
              Re: Why Johnny can?t code Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-09-03 19:55 +0000
                Re: Why Johnny can?t code Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2014-09-03 17:33 -0400
                Re: Why Johnny can?t code Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-09-03 21:35 +0000
                Re: Why Johnny can?t code scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us (Scott Alfter) - 2014-09-04 15:24 +0000
                Re: Why Johnny can?t code Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-09-04 20:17 +0000
        Re: Why Johnny can?t code Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-09-02 18:56 +0000
        Re: Why Johnny can?t code Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-09-03 20:59 +0200
      Re: Why Johnny can?t code Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-09-02 18:45 +0000
        Re: Why Johnny can?t code Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2014-09-02 20:50 +0100
          Re: Why Johnny can?t code Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-09-03 21:05 +0200
    Re: Why Johnny can?t code Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-09-02 16:56 +0200
      Re: Why Johnny can?t code Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-09-02 16:09 +0100
    Re: Why Johnny can?t code Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2014-09-04 14:57 +0000
      Re: Why Johnny can?t code Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> - 2014-09-04 15:24 +0000
        Re: Why Johnny can't code Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2014-09-05 02:33 -0300
  Re: Why Johnny can?t code Will Honea <whonea@whonea.net> - 2014-09-02 14:08 -0600
    Re: Why Johnny can?t code Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-09-02 20:55 +0000
    Re: Why Johnny can?t code Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> - 2014-09-02 21:02 +0000
      Re: Why Johnny can?t code Will Honea <whonea@whonea.net> - 2014-09-02 23:07 -0600
        Re: Why Johnny can?t code Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> - 2014-09-04 10:58 +0000
          Re: Why Johnny can?t code Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-09-04 11:09 +0000
            Re: Why Johnny can?t code Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> - 2014-09-04 11:17 +0000
              Re: Why Johnny can?t code Will Honea <whonea@whonea.net> - 2014-09-04 22:58 -0600
                Re: Why Johnny can?t code Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> - 2014-09-05 11:38 +0000
                Re: Why Johnny can?t code Will Honea <whonea@whonea.net> - 2014-09-05 13:55 -0600
                Re: Why Johnny can?t code Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> - 2014-09-05 20:02 +0000
          Re: Why Johnny can?t code Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-09-04 14:28 +0300
          Re: Why Johnny can?t code RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> - 2014-09-04 20:27 +0100
            Re: Why Johnny can?t code Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> - 2014-09-04 19:55 +0000
              Re: Why Johnny can?t code Will Honea <whonea@whonea.net> - 2014-09-04 22:50 -0600
                Re: Why Johnny can?t code Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> - 2014-09-05 11:37 +0000
                Re: Why Johnny can?t code Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-09-05 13:05 +0100
                Re: Why Johnny can?t code Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> - 2014-09-05 15:22 +0000
                Re: Why Johnny can?t code Will Honea <whonea@whonea.net> - 2014-09-05 13:48 -0600
                Re: Why Johnny can?t code Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> - 2014-09-05 20:09 +0000
  Re: Why Johnny can?t code Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2014-09-03 12:26 +1000
  Re: Why Johnny can?t code Bruce Horrocks <07.013@scorecrow.com> - 2014-09-04 00:34 +0100
  Re: Why Johnny can?t code Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2014-09-04 15:01 +0000

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