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Groups > sci.electronics.design > #446847
| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | sci.electronics.design |
| Subject | Re: H-1B Reform |
| Date | 2017-02-08 12:16 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <eg1ck8FigeeU1@mid.individual.net> (permalink) |
| References | (7 earlier) <mesk9c5jnooc9edap9084pbnmusi0tfh6m@4ax.com> <eg0u3sFfedbU1@mid.individual.net> <frkm9c1d297p5r0stvsk6frus1qfvo5cgh@4ax.com> <eg14ugFgsgsU1@mid.individual.net> <qinm9cp2gp9cclbgl10rqltk0e1sqs2e5q@4ax.com> |
On 2017-02-08 10:13, krw@notreal.com wrote: > On Wed, 08 Feb 2017 10:05:28 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> > wrote: > >> On 2017-02-08 09:28, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>> On Wed, 08 Feb 2017 08:08:51 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On 2017-02-07 17:21, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>>>> On Tue, 07 Feb 2017 10:02:30 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 2017-02-07 09:18, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>>>>>> On Tue, 07 Feb 2017 07:49:06 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 2017-02-06 17:26, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>>>>>>>> On Mon, 06 Feb 2017 07:27:48 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 2017-02-05 15:02, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> [...] >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ... It really is impossible to find hundreds of >>>>>>>>>>> contractors, quickly, in the US. H1B contractors fill the crests in >>>>>>>>>>> workload so the employee base is more stable (we have a number of >>>>>>>>>>> contract EEs, too, but they're not H1Bs). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It's perfectly ok to use H1B contractors. However, they need to be paid >>>>>>>>>> prevailing wage or higher and that must be _verified_ which is super >>>>>>>>>> easy to do. I have suggested that all the time but it wasn't done. Now >>>>>>>>>> it will be because the new administration seems to understand some stuff >>>>>>>>>> that previous ones didn't. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The H1Bs at my CPoE aren't paid the same as employees, sure, but they >>>>>>>>> don't have the same responsibilities, either. They're basically code >>>>>>>>> jockeys. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Once they have to start paying them $130k/year each they will probably >>>>>>>> find Americans for that job, and fast. There are plenty of un- or >>>>>>>> under-employed coders around. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No, they'd just move *all* jobs overseas. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Sure, that can happen. Then we need to find out why we cannot perform >>>>>> these design tasks here and do something about it. >>>>> >>>>> We can (do), if the government would let it alone. My job has been >>>>> "off-shored" from somewhere else. Do you want to stop that, too? >>>> >>>> >>>> Of course not. Moving design tasks to where the talent is has always >>>> been a smart idea. Same if you can obtain sufficiently good results at a >>>> lower cost. In a world economy every region has to compete against >>>> another. Competiton is a good thing. What each region should, therefore, >>>> do is level the playing field. >>> >>> OK, so you want to leave the *foreign* US jobs here but don't want to >>> import *any* foreign workers to fill short-term positions, even if >>> they're paid similarly to (unavailable) locals, for the same skills. >> >> >> Huh? Where did I ever say that? > > You've been arguing for the elimination of the H1B. Where did I ever say that? Please quote. > ... What other conclusion could one come to? That maybe you were wrong and I never said that. Because I didn't. >> >>> You want to export *all* of those salaries. You want your cake and >>> eat it too. Got it. >>> >>>>> Getting rid of H1Bs is a good way to do it. >>>>> >>>> >>>> They would still use your design team if they can't get the results locally. >>> >>> They were doing it at home but it makes sense to do it closer to the >>> customer. If the job is made more difficult to do here, it won't be. >>> That's the bottom line (for all business decisions). >>> >> >> Sure. That should always be made possible. It's got nothing to do with >> H1B, that is simply having a foreign design center. > > Of course it does. H1Bs are a "necessary evil" for the business to > exist here. > If the only way to get their designs done he is the inclusion of H1B specialists they should not have a problem paying the required wages, should they? >>>>>>>> H1B was meant to obtain special talent that could not be found in the US >>>>>>>> or where we simply don't have enough engineers, not for hiring scores of >>>>>>>> cheap programmers. Now it will (hopefully) revert to that original intent. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Special" has lots of meanings. The restriction is that the job is >>>>>>> unfillable with resident labor. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Why are they unfillable? >>>>> >>>>> Because not enough people want a three or six month programming job >>>>> with no chance of direct hire. >>>> >>>> >>>> I have met lots of people who do. Also, that still beats being unable to >>>> make a good living or being stuck in some cheap apartment. >>> >>> But they *will* be stuck in a cheap apartment. That's the nature of >>> short-term contract work. BTDT. >>> >> >> It is not. I do this for a living. So why am I not stuck in a cheap >> apartment? > > You work from home. That's not going to be done with low-level > programming or verification jobs. <sheesh> Well, we got that done successfully, several times. Over one ocean plus some land. >> >>>> For me, having shorter term stints (until a project is complete) is fun. >>>> It provides a smorgasbord of tasks for me which are all different. Just >>>> as I want it. There are not many hardware engineers who feel that way >>>> but many programmers do. >>> >>> They simply don't want to move for short-term work. You don't have to >>> because they come to you. Different kettle. >> >> >> It can be the same for programmers. They just have to become good enough >> so people either come to them or are willing to do it remotely. We live >> in a high-cost country and the only way to keep a decent job, temporary >> or not, is by becoming good enough at what one is doing. > > No, it can't. These are low-level coding and test jobs. You know, > that sort of cruft you won't do? > Sometimes it is necessary to come out there and do it locally. Nothing wrong with that, I've done that as well. Get a room at a hotel or some extended-stay accommodation. You can still have a home to come home to. You do not have to live your lief out of a suitcase. >> >> Example: The programmer for one of the projects I am involved in lives >> and works in his own home about 7000 miles from here. It works. Another >> works from his home about 3-4 miles from here and has mostly West Coast >> clients. Whenever we have to work together I usually go there by >> mountain bike. Even if we could get a certain task done remotely I >> sometimes rode (and did not bill my client for that travel time) because >> it's fun and healthy. > > We have a DSP engineer who lives in Montana, too. Completely > different issue. You can't do that with a team of hundres of > short-time transients. I don't know your product but we have done exactly that with complicated medical equipment design. In one rather extreme case there were half a dozen local engineers and a dozen external ones. It ended up completely blowing a competitor out of the water. >>>>>> >>>>>> For certain high-skill or niche jobs it is certainly true. WRT >>>>>> programmers what I hear is more like the first part of this article, >>>>>> they are heaving trouble finding enough gigs or employment: >>>>> >>>>> But they don't want to move for short term employment, either. >>>> >>>> There are more people than you think who abhor office politics and >>>> prefer freelancing just because of that. >>> >>> It's *NOT* freelancing. It's contract work. You're still working for >>> an employer. Two, in fact. >>> >> >> If people feel like not marketing their skills themselves then they have >> to live with the middleman company. I never did and never will. > > Good grief. The job has to be done. We can't just waive a stick and > make a low-level coding job a high-level architect's job (though the > US education system is trying). > Then just "rent" the coders. There are plenty of US-based ones and if needed they come out there. If it has to be H1B pay them accordingly and all is good. What I am squarely against is abusing H1B to obtain cheap indentured labor. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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H-1B Reform bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com - 2017-01-31 08:16 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-01-31 09:15 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Martin Riddle <martin_rid@verizon.net> - 2017-01-31 20:11 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2017-01-31 22:49 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform dakupoto@gmail.com - 2017-02-04 22:52 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-05 07:23 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-05 18:02 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-06 07:27 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-06 20:26 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-07 07:49 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-07 12:18 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-07 10:02 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-07 20:21 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-08 08:08 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-08 12:28 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-08 10:05 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-08 13:13 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-08 12:16 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-08 20:13 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-09 07:19 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-02-08 13:42 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-08 12:06 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-06 03:18 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-06 03:17 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-06 07:51 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform makolber@yahoo.com - 2017-02-06 10:08 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-06 10:11 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-02-06 12:53 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-06 13:22 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-06 20:36 +0000
Re: H-1B Reform Neon John <no@never.com> - 2017-02-08 17:20 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-08 20:14 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-06 19:36 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-07 08:02 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-02-07 17:01 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-07 20:33 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-08 08:18 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 17:02 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-08 14:36 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 21:12 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-09 07:42 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Neon John <no@never.com> - 2017-02-09 11:02 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-09 10:36 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-02-09 14:34 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-09 12:27 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-02-09 15:33 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-09 12:40 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-09 17:58 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-06 17:10 +0000
Re: H-1B Reform Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-02-06 09:24 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-06 18:05 +0000
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-06 10:18 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-06 20:41 +0000
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-06 13:31 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-06 22:05 +0000
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-06 14:56 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform mixed nuts <melopsitticus@undulatus.budgie> - 2017-02-05 10:32 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2017-02-05 19:15 +0100
Re: H-1B Reform mixed nuts <melopsitticus@undulatus.budgie> - 2017-02-05 23:06 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-06 03:24 -0800
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