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Groups > sci.electronics.design > #447017
| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | sci.electronics.design |
| Subject | Re: H-1B Reform |
| Date | 2017-02-09 07:19 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <eg3fj9Fr6uU1@mid.individual.net> (permalink) |
| References | (8 earlier) <frkm9c1d297p5r0stvsk6frus1qfvo5cgh@4ax.com> <eg14ugFgsgsU1@mid.individual.net> <qinm9cp2gp9cclbgl10rqltk0e1sqs2e5q@4ax.com> <eg1ck8FigeeU1@mid.individual.net> <k4gn9cp4rmaj5v90it1hbumakjmmd5quov@4ax.com> |
On 2017-02-08 17:13, krw@notreal.com wrote: > On Wed, 08 Feb 2017 12:16:32 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> > wrote: > >> On 2017-02-08 10:13, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>> On Wed, 08 Feb 2017 10:05:28 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On 2017-02-08 09:28, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>>>> On Wed, 08 Feb 2017 08:08:51 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 2017-02-07 17:21, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>>>>>> On Tue, 07 Feb 2017 10:02:30 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 2017-02-07 09:18, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>>>>>>>> On Tue, 07 Feb 2017 07:49:06 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 2017-02-06 17:26, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 06 Feb 2017 07:27:48 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-02-05 15:02, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [...] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ... It really is impossible to find hundreds of >>>>>>>>>>>>> contractors, quickly, in the US. H1B contractors fill the crests in >>>>>>>>>>>>> workload so the employee base is more stable (we have a number of >>>>>>>>>>>>> contract EEs, too, but they're not H1Bs). >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> It's perfectly ok to use H1B contractors. However, they need to be paid >>>>>>>>>>>> prevailing wage or higher and that must be _verified_ which is super >>>>>>>>>>>> easy to do. I have suggested that all the time but it wasn't done. Now >>>>>>>>>>>> it will be because the new administration seems to understand some stuff >>>>>>>>>>>> that previous ones didn't. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The H1Bs at my CPoE aren't paid the same as employees, sure, but they >>>>>>>>>>> don't have the same responsibilities, either. They're basically code >>>>>>>>>>> jockeys. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Once they have to start paying them $130k/year each they will probably >>>>>>>>>> find Americans for that job, and fast. There are plenty of un- or >>>>>>>>>> under-employed coders around. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> No, they'd just move *all* jobs overseas. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sure, that can happen. Then we need to find out why we cannot perform >>>>>>>> these design tasks here and do something about it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We can (do), if the government would let it alone. My job has been >>>>>>> "off-shored" from somewhere else. Do you want to stop that, too? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Of course not. Moving design tasks to where the talent is has always >>>>>> been a smart idea. Same if you can obtain sufficiently good results at a >>>>>> lower cost. In a world economy every region has to compete against >>>>>> another. Competiton is a good thing. What each region should, therefore, >>>>>> do is level the playing field. >>>>> >>>>> OK, so you want to leave the *foreign* US jobs here but don't want to >>>>> import *any* foreign workers to fill short-term positions, even if >>>>> they're paid similarly to (unavailable) locals, for the same skills. >>>> >>>> >>>> Huh? Where did I ever say that? >>> >>> You've been arguing for the elimination of the H1B. >> >> >> Where did I ever say that? Please quote. > > You want double the "minimum wage". That's the same damned thing. > It is not. As I said many times H1B is meant to get skilled labor on the world market. Skill that cannot be found here. If a company is unwilling to pay commensurate wage then they do not have a real shortage. It's that simple. >> >> >>> ... What other conclusion could one come to? >> >> >> That maybe you were wrong and I never said that. Because I didn't. > > You did. Baloney. I didn't and as expected you won't quote me because you can't. Don't start engaging in fake news :-) >> >>>> >>>>> You want to export *all* of those salaries. You want your cake and >>>>> eat it too. Got it. >>>>> >>>>>>> Getting rid of H1Bs is a good way to do it. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> They would still use your design team if they can't get the results locally. >>>>> >>>>> They were doing it at home but it makes sense to do it closer to the >>>>> customer. If the job is made more difficult to do here, it won't be. >>>>> That's the bottom line (for all business decisions). >>>>> >>>> >>>> Sure. That should always be made possible. It's got nothing to do with >>>> H1B, that is simply having a foreign design center. >>> >>> Of course it does. H1Bs are a "necessary evil" for the business to >>> exist here. >>> >> >> If the only way to get their designs done he is the inclusion of H1B >> specialists they should not have a problem paying the required wages, >> should they? > > [F . . | . . | . ./] > Logic Content Huh? At least the administration (finally!) understands this. It is sad that it took a landslide election to get there. Heck, the basic idea even came from the left and is essentially bipartisan. >> >>>>>>>>>> H1B was meant to obtain special talent that could not be found in the US >>>>>>>>>> or where we simply don't have enough engineers, not for hiring scores of >>>>>>>>>> cheap programmers. Now it will (hopefully) revert to that original intent. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "Special" has lots of meanings. The restriction is that the job is >>>>>>>>> unfillable with resident labor. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Why are they unfillable? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Because not enough people want a three or six month programming job >>>>>>> with no chance of direct hire. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I have met lots of people who do. Also, that still beats being unable to >>>>>> make a good living or being stuck in some cheap apartment. >>>>> >>>>> But they *will* be stuck in a cheap apartment. That's the nature of >>>>> short-term contract work. BTDT. >>>>> >>>> >>>> It is not. I do this for a living. So why am I not stuck in a cheap >>>> apartment? >>> >>> You work from home. That's not going to be done with low-level >>> programming or verification jobs. <sheesh> >> >> >> Well, we got that done successfully, several times. Over one ocean plus >> some land. > > Apples and orangutangs. > No, it was mostly organization skills. These were embedded products inside an intricate system where most people think it can't be done remotely yet it was successfully done. >>>>>> For me, having shorter term stints (until a project is complete) is fun. >>>>>> It provides a smorgasbord of tasks for me which are all different. Just >>>>>> as I want it. There are not many hardware engineers who feel that way >>>>>> but many programmers do. >>>>> >>>>> They simply don't want to move for short-term work. You don't have to >>>>> because they come to you. Different kettle. >>>> >>>> >>>> It can be the same for programmers. They just have to become good enough >>>> so people either come to them or are willing to do it remotely. We live >>>> in a high-cost country and the only way to keep a decent job, temporary >>>> or not, is by becoming good enough at what one is doing. >>> >>> No, it can't. These are low-level coding and test jobs. You know, >>> that sort of cruft you won't do? >>> >> >> Sometimes it is necessary to come out there and do it locally. Nothing >> wrong with that, I've done that as well. Get a room at a hotel or some >> extended-stay accommodation. You can still have a home to come home to. >> You do not have to live your lief out of a suitcase. > > For six months? That means low-rent housing, something you were > railing against, IIRC. I was not. Obtaining temporary housing either in a hotel, an extended-stay place or a rented apartment is not a problem for a technical professional. Just like camping in the wilderness isn't for someone with a requirement to work even more remotely. I have done it dozens of time. Key is you _have_ to have a _real_ _home_ to come back to. And I always did. Of course, the temporary accommodations have to be adequate so you can let your family follow at times and explore a new area together. My dad did that as well and thinking back to my times as a kid this was fun. >> >>>> >>>> Example: The programmer for one of the projects I am involved in lives >>>> and works in his own home about 7000 miles from here. It works. Another >>>> works from his home about 3-4 miles from here and has mostly West Coast >>>> clients. Whenever we have to work together I usually go there by >>>> mountain bike. Even if we could get a certain task done remotely I >>>> sometimes rode (and did not bill my client for that travel time) because >>>> it's fun and healthy. >>> >>> We have a DSP engineer who lives in Montana, too. Completely >>> different issue. You can't do that with a team of hundres of >>> short-time transients. >> >> >> I don't know your product but we have done exactly that with complicated >> medical equipment design. In one rather extreme case there were half a >> dozen local engineers and a dozen external ones. It ended up completely >> blowing a competitor out of the water. > > I'm calling bullshit on that one. So if you can't do something or you can't imagine something it is BS to you? Now you are sounding a bit like the drive-by media Limbaugh was always talking about. The folks who stood there with dropped jaws last Nov-8. >> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> For certain high-skill or niche jobs it is certainly true. WRT >>>>>>>> programmers what I hear is more like the first part of this article, >>>>>>>> they are heaving trouble finding enough gigs or employment: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But they don't want to move for short term employment, either. >>>>>> >>>>>> There are more people than you think who abhor office politics and >>>>>> prefer freelancing just because of that. >>>>> >>>>> It's *NOT* freelancing. It's contract work. You're still working for >>>>> an employer. Two, in fact. >>>>> >>>> >>>> If people feel like not marketing their skills themselves then they have >>>> to live with the middleman company. I never did and never will. >>> >>> Good grief. The job has to be done. We can't just waive a stick and >>> make a low-level coding job a high-level architect's job (though the >>> US education system is trying). >>> >> >> Then just "rent" the coders. There are plenty of US-based ones and if >> needed they come out there. If it has to be H1B pay them accordingly and >> all is good. What I am squarely against is abusing H1B to obtain cheap >> indentured labor. > > We *are* renting the coders. They happen to be H1Bs. > Then rent local ones. There are plenty. Pretty soon you will have to or it'll get expensive. H1B was never meant to temp-hire people without niche skills, shouldn't be used for that and in the near future very likely won't be used for that anymore. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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H-1B Reform bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com - 2017-01-31 08:16 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-01-31 09:15 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Martin Riddle <martin_rid@verizon.net> - 2017-01-31 20:11 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2017-01-31 22:49 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform dakupoto@gmail.com - 2017-02-04 22:52 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-05 07:23 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-05 18:02 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-06 07:27 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-06 20:26 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-07 07:49 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-07 12:18 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-07 10:02 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-07 20:21 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-08 08:08 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-08 12:28 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-08 10:05 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-08 13:13 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-08 12:16 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-08 20:13 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-09 07:19 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-02-08 13:42 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-08 12:06 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-06 03:18 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-06 03:17 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-06 07:51 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform makolber@yahoo.com - 2017-02-06 10:08 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-06 10:11 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-02-06 12:53 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-06 13:22 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-06 20:36 +0000
Re: H-1B Reform Neon John <no@never.com> - 2017-02-08 17:20 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-08 20:14 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-06 19:36 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-07 08:02 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-02-07 17:01 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-07 20:33 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-08 08:18 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 17:02 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-08 14:36 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 21:12 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-09 07:42 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Neon John <no@never.com> - 2017-02-09 11:02 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-09 10:36 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-02-09 14:34 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-09 12:27 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-02-09 15:33 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-09 12:40 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-09 17:58 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-06 17:10 +0000
Re: H-1B Reform Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-02-06 09:24 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-06 18:05 +0000
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-06 10:18 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-06 20:41 +0000
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-06 13:31 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-06 22:05 +0000
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-06 14:56 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform mixed nuts <melopsitticus@undulatus.budgie> - 2017-02-05 10:32 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2017-02-05 19:15 +0100
Re: H-1B Reform mixed nuts <melopsitticus@undulatus.budgie> - 2017-02-05 23:06 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-06 03:24 -0800
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