Re: Programming

Newsgroups	comp.programming
Date	2016-07-18 07:52 -0700
References	(1 earlier) <nmdkh2$f9a$1@dont-email.me> <6a8820b3-253a-479f-93ec-f2e03efe5753@googlegroups.com> <nmgd5k$mkv$1@dont-email.me> <87d1mcjc3e.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <nmh60m$ah6$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID	<a1965183-4bf6-4eca-91ec-e0808ec6ae9d@googlegroups.com> (permalink)
Subject	Re: Programming
From	Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name>

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On Monday, July 18, 2016 at 1:57:12 AM UTC+2, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 17/07/16 20:31, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> > Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> writes:
> >> On 17/07/16 17:16, Julio Di Egidio wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, July 16, 2016 at 5:40:21 PM UTC+2, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> > <snip>
> >>>> Once you've mastered PHP, you're probably ready to tackle a "real"
> >>>> programming language (although I'm being unfair to PHP).
> >>>>
> >>>> Real programs for real users tend to be written in languages such as C
> >>>> or C++. Toy programs for toy users (e.g. Windows users) tend to be
> >>>> written in VB.NET or C#. So you kind of have to choose which way you
> >>>> want to go.
> >>>
> >>> Congratulations: good load of bullshit.
> >>
> >> Congratulations: well-reasoned argument, carefully thought out and
> >> skilfully presented to win hearts and minds.
> >
> > Your points got exactly the level of reasoned argument that they
> > deserve.  (I thought you were joking so I didn't say anything first time
> > round.)
> 
> Ouch. No, I wasn't joking.
> 
> I answered as I did because the tone of the OP gave me the impression 
> that the OP wanted to learn programming without a lot of investment of 
> effort on his part ("tell me the easiest way"). There is no question 
> whatsoever in my mind that HTML is the easiest-to-learn mainstream 
> computer language (and note that I have carefully avoided saying 
> "programming language"). With only a modicum of knowledge you can 
> produce a reasonable product quite quickly.

OK, few explanations:

With HTML alone, all one can build is static pages: not even a contact form, i.e. not even the web of the early days.  In particular, the fact that you call JavaScript "a blind alley" (which was snipped) is *outmost nonsense*.  JS was important already at the time and is more and more fundamental for web-based applications nowadays (and not only for that, as you can use it server-side as well).  It is also a *wonderful* (functional) language, as well as a great way (the HTML/CSS/JS combination) to get started...

OTOH, no real software professional would be bashing Microsoft which, for the chronicle, to today still powers 90%+ of the businesses around the globe: and which, by the way, is not nearly as bad as the cult followers and hooligans of the various kinds like to insist it is.

That said, and disregarding the OP for a moment, there is no such thing as "the best way" or even just "the best way to get started": yes, even PHP is good, or BASIC, or HyperTalk, or what have you...  The point being that there are so many paradigms, languages, systems and frameworks that really this is a journey that is a life-time long and where the goal is to be able to work with anything and everything, so what you pick today is in no way limiting to the so many things that you will need to learn and will be learning along the way: that and the focus on solving real-world problems, not a focus on the technology and tools, makes the real "programmer".

Indeed, the focus on technology and tools rather than on the needs and social impact is the consequence of the dumbing down of our profession (we used to be "software consultants" who knew that there is more to programming than just programming) and the huge speculations that, following the so called democratisation of programming, were started in the late nineties: by the vendors first and then by the big consulting firms, nowadays selling under the hijacked name of Agility what is pure ad-hoc and upside-down nonsense and the market of fake solutions.  And more and in more detail could be said, on the never ending software crisis... but this now is another story which I'll leave for another day.

Too many things to say, I just hope that clarifies the general intent.

All the best,

Julio

> Then all you have to do to 
> turn that HTML into legal PHP is to rename the file. Next, you can start 
> playing with simple PHP constructs, and before you know it you're doing 
> loops and stuff. And that's quite a gentle entry into the world of 
> programming, which I would argue constitutes a reasonable answer to "the 
> easiest way".
> 
> I question your claim, sir.

Thread

Programming HQM <harisqmega@gmail.com> - 2016-07-16 07:07 -0700
  Re: Programming Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-16 16:40 +0100
    Re: Programming Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2016-07-17 09:16 -0700
      Re: Programming Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-17 17:53 +0100
        Re: Programming Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-17 20:31 +0100
          Re: Programming Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-18 00:57 +0100
            Re: Programming Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-18 05:36 +0100
              Re: Programming Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2016-07-18 08:13 -0700
                Re: Programming Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-18 16:33 +0100
                Re: Programming BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-18 16:44 +0100
                Re: Programming Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-18 17:01 +0100
                Re: Programming Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2016-07-18 09:16 -0700
                Re: Programming Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-18 17:23 +0100
                Re: Programming Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2016-07-18 09:28 -0700
                Re: Programming Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-18 18:00 +0100
                Re: Programming BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-18 18:28 +0100
                Re: Programming Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-18 18:54 +0100
                Re: Programming "Ant" <not@home.today> - 2016-07-18 21:12 +0100
                Re: Programming Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-18 21:24 +0100
                Re: Programming Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2016-07-18 14:49 -0700
                Re: Programming Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-18 20:03 +0100
                Re: Programming Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-18 20:24 +0100
                Re: Programming Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2016-07-18 16:17 -0700
                Re: Programming "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 19:30 -0400
                Re: Programming "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 19:22 -0400
              Re: Programming BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-18 16:25 +0100
              Re: Programming "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 21:18 -0400
                Re: Programming Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-19 03:35 +0100
                Re: Programming "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 19:37 -0400
                Re: Programming Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-20 00:50 +0100
                Re: Programming "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 19:41 -0400
                Re: Programming "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-20 03:31 -0400
                Re: Programming "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 21:01 -0400
            Re: Programming "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 05:02 -0400
              Re: Programming Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-18 10:35 +0100
            Re: Programming Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-18 10:02 +0100
            Re: Programming Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2016-07-18 07:52 -0700
              Re: Programming Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-18 16:25 +0100
                Re: Programming Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2016-07-18 08:32 -0700
                Re: Programming Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-18 16:36 +0100
    Re: Programming BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-18 13:02 +0100
      Re: Programming Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-18 13:38 +0100
  Re: Programming BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-16 22:38 +0100
  Re: Programming Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2016-07-17 09:20 -0700

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