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Re: H-1B Reform

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On 2/8/2017 11:18 AM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-02-07 17:33, rickman wrote:
>> On 2/7/2017 11:02 AM, Joerg wrote:
>>> On 2017-02-06 16:36, rickman wrote:
>>>> On 2/6/2017 10:51 AM, Joerg wrote:
>>>>> On 2017-02-06 00:18, rickman wrote:
>>>>>> On 2/5/2017 10:23 AM, Joerg wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2017-02-04 22:52, dakupoto@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, January 31, 2017 at 8:12:03 PM UTC-5, Martin Riddle
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 08:16:27 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>>>>> bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This is going to fly like a lead balloon:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/zg8k64f
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So instead of displacing 1 american worker, they'll displace 2?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Huh? How can a single engineer do the work of two on a consistent
>>>>>>> basis?
>>>>>>> The day has only 24h.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is very well said. And now more and more
>>>>>>>> US high tech companies will try to outsource
>>>>>>>> as many of their jobs as possible to off-shore
>>>>>>>> sites.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They'll do that anyhow and that's got nothing to do with H1B.
>>>>>>> Running a
>>>>>>> software outfit overseas is cheaper than paying for travel and
>>>>>>> housing
>>>>>>> of someone temporarily moved over here. The pay will also be much
>>>>>>> lower
>>>>>>> because the cost of daily life is much lower in many countries
>>>>>>> overseas.
>>>>>>> Also, there can't be import tariffs on it because their work results
>>>>>>> will flow across the borders on "singing wires".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Raising and most of all enforcing the required wage is the perfect
>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>> to fix H1B and I've always said that. Finally we have an
>>>>>>> administration
>>>>>>> that understand it. H1B is meant to haul in talent where we truly
>>>>>>> can't
>>>>>>> find an engineer for, not to obtain work results cheaper. The
>>>>>>> companies
>>>>>>> I worked for used H1B for exactly that intended purpose and they
>>>>>>> paid
>>>>>>> beaucoup bucks for those folks in salary.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The required wage for H-1B workers has always been the prevailing
>>>>>> wage.
>>>>>> But I seem to recall that most of the jobs being filled by this
>>>>>> workers
>>>>>> have not been higher paying engineering jobs.  Still, enforcement has
>>>>>> been the hard and ineffective part.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Correct, because the bureaucrats who could have monitored this with
>>>>> ease
>>>>> were asleep at the wheel. That is now likely going to change and it
>>>>> should.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, the cause of every problem is somnambulist civil servants.  Mostly
>>>> likely the cause is lack of sufficient resources allocated by Congress.
>>>> Trump and Congress can pass any law they want, but if they don't
>>>> pony up
>>>> the money to pay for enforcement....
>>>>
>>>
>>> A computer can monitor this. One method: Each H1B visa holder must agree
>>> that their tax return info _and_ monthly bank account balances are
>>> automatically sent over to the DOL. There, the computer crunches the
>>> numbers. Only when the computer goes BEEEEP does anyone look into the
>>> numbers and sends out an auditor. These people can be paid from a pot
>>> filled by the penalties that abusing companies are slapped with. No need
>>> to allocate anything. Simple.
>>
>> Can we hire H-1B visa holders to program the computers?
>>
>
> Sure you can. But starting this year you have to pay big bucks for that.
> As it should be with H1B.
>
>
>>
>>>>> We need H1B and the law is already quite good as it is, always has
>>>>> been.
>>>>> The problem is a de-facto non-enforcement of the rules in this law. I
>>>>> have personally met people who were let go and then replaced by an H1B
>>>>> worker. This is wrong. So we need to get back to applying H1B the
>>>>> way it
>>>>> was always intended, obtaining talent which we truly cannot find in
>>>>> America or simply do not have enough of.
>>>>
>>>> My cousin was one of those people.  He literally trained his
>>>> replacement.  But he wouldn't report them.  In the end after six months
>>>> or so they hired him back...  then laid him off again later on.
>>>> Then he
>>>> came back as a contractor getting paid much more.  You have to work the
>>>> system to your benefit.
>>>>
>>>
>>> He was lucky. Others weren't so lucky. Anyhow, with the new rules that
>>> will hopefully end soon.
>>
>> I don't recall the details, but when I dug into the H-1B thing the vast
>> majority of visa holders worked for huge temp companies essentially and
>> they were not doing high level engineering work.  It was more like IT or
>> similar level work.  Ask a company to pay them $130k a year will simply
>> kill the entire H-1B program.
>>
>
> It will not. H1B allows us to hire that specialist from overseas
> elsewhere that brings fresh ideas into a project. It allows us to hire
> the brightest minds to keep America at the top of high-tech. That is
> what H1B was designed for.

Except that is not what it is being used for.  The proposed changes will 
eliminate abuse, but it does nothing to *encourage* proper use.


>> I believe you are addressing a problem that isn't really very big.
>>
>
> It is big to all those people like your cousin because it messes with
> their making a living.

My cousin was very happy.


> H1B is a wonderful program and abolishing it like some short-sighted
> pundits are advocating would be flat wrong. It needs to simply be
> brought back to its original intent. All the protection measures are
> already in the law, always have been. We as a country simply need to
> adhere to them and that unfortunately means enforcement of rules.

It is still bringing in workers where there is no shortage.


>>>>>> I know when I have worked in companies producing products for a
>>>>>> competitive marketplace, there was *lots* of interaction between all
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> departments involved.  It would have been very hard to produce a
>>>>>> product
>>>>>> other than what was intended by the marketing group.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Marketing-driven businesses can be a problem though. I have seen some.
>>>>> Mostly because marketing folks often think too short term and most of
>>>>> all in a reaction-mode. "Oh, we just saw the competition has an XYZ
>>>>> wombombulator function so we absolutely need that by this coming trade
>>>>> show". I am quite glad to not be exposed to this all that much
>>>>> anymore.
>>>>> My current clients operate in true visionary mode.
>>>>
>>>> "Marketing driven" is a term that means just what you want it to
>>>> mean. A
>>>> company needs marketing and if the engineering department fails to
>>>> negotiate the requirements and/or fails to meet those requirements,
>>>> then
>>>> where are they?  Customers will buy what they want and if you don't
>>>> give
>>>> it to them, you won't be designing anything in the future.
>>>>
>>>
>>> What I meant by that is what I saw a lot over my career: Sales and
>>> marketing folks are very much in an "instant gratification" mode, they
>>> do not think very long term. Engineers usually do. What this resulted in
>>> is that good engineering ideas withered because marketing demanded that
>>> 100% of the available manpower was spent on existing product design
>>> improvements. I know quite well how marketing folks think because I
>>> married my very first contact with a marketing department :-)
>>
>> I don't know what companies you have worked for, but "gratification"
>> comes from management.  They make the rules and if they reward marketing
>> for doing lousy work, that's not marketing's fault.  We *all* respond to
>> the stimulus and rewards we receive.  Engineering as well.
>>
>
> Marketing is usually under the VP or Sales. Sales is traditionally
> driven by commissions. Hence ...

No, marketing is *not* "under" sales in any company I've worked for. 
Regardless, ultimate control over commissions and everything else in a 
company is by management.  They can create good, or create bad. 
Obviously not every company has the issues you mention, so there must be 
ways to solve the problem.

-- 

Rick C

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Thread

H-1B Reform bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com - 2017-01-31 08:16 -0800
  Re: H-1B Reform George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-01-31 09:15 -0800
  Re: H-1B Reform Martin Riddle <martin_rid@verizon.net> - 2017-01-31 20:11 -0500
    Re: H-1B Reform Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2017-01-31 22:49 -0500
    Re: H-1B Reform dakupoto@gmail.com - 2017-02-04 22:52 -0800
      Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-05 07:23 -0800
        Re: H-1B Reform krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-05 18:02 -0500
          Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-06 07:27 -0800
            Re: H-1B Reform krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-06 20:26 -0500
              Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-07 07:49 -0800
                Re: H-1B Reform krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-07 12:18 -0500
                Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-07 10:02 -0800
                Re: H-1B Reform krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-07 20:21 -0500
                Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-08 08:08 -0800
                Re: H-1B Reform krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-08 12:28 -0500
                Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-08 10:05 -0800
                Re: H-1B Reform krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-08 13:13 -0500
                Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-08 12:16 -0800
                Re: H-1B Reform krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-08 20:13 -0500
                Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-09 07:19 -0800
                Re: H-1B Reform Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-02-08 13:42 -0500
                Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-08 12:06 -0800
        Re: H-1B Reform rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-06 03:18 -0500
          Re: H-1B Reform bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-06 03:17 -0800
          Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-06 07:51 -0800
            Re: H-1B Reform makolber@yahoo.com - 2017-02-06 10:08 -0800
              Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-06 10:11 -0800
                Re: H-1B Reform Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-02-06 12:53 -0800
                Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-06 13:22 -0800
              Re: H-1B Reform Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-06 20:36 +0000
              Re: H-1B Reform Neon John <no@never.com> - 2017-02-08 17:20 -0500
                Re: H-1B Reform krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-08 20:14 -0500
            Re: H-1B Reform rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-06 19:36 -0500
              Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-07 08:02 -0800
                Re: H-1B Reform Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-02-07 17:01 -0500
                Re: H-1B Reform rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-07 20:33 -0500
                Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-08 08:18 -0800
                Re: H-1B Reform rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 17:02 -0500
                Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-08 14:36 -0800
                Re: H-1B Reform rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 21:12 -0500
                Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-09 07:42 -0800
                Re: H-1B Reform Neon John <no@never.com> - 2017-02-09 11:02 -0500
                Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-09 10:36 -0800
                Re: H-1B Reform Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-02-09 14:34 -0500
                Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-09 12:27 -0800
                Re: H-1B Reform Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-02-09 15:33 -0500
                Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-09 12:40 -0800
                Re: H-1B Reform bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-09 17:58 -0800
        Re: H-1B Reform Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-06 17:10 +0000
          Re: H-1B Reform Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-02-06 09:24 -0800
            Re: H-1B Reform Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-06 18:05 +0000
              Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-06 10:18 -0800
                Re: H-1B Reform Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-06 20:41 +0000
                Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-06 13:31 -0800
                Re: H-1B Reform Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-06 22:05 +0000
                Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-06 14:56 -0800
      Re: H-1B Reform mixed nuts <melopsitticus@undulatus.budgie> - 2017-02-05 10:32 -0500
        Re: H-1B Reform Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2017-02-05 19:15 +0100
          Re: H-1B Reform mixed nuts <melopsitticus@undulatus.budgie> - 2017-02-05 23:06 -0500
            Re: H-1B Reform bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-06 03:24 -0800

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