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Slashdot Beta Sucks

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  Slashdot Beta Sucks John Brownalt <deconfliction@filteredperception.org> - 2014-02-07 10:45 +0000
    Re: Slashdot Beta Sucks 2phar <none@example.com> - 2014-02-07 11:45 -0500
      Re: Slashdot Beta Sucks "Dirk T. Verbeek" <dverbeek@xs4all.nl> - 2014-02-07 18:01 +0000
        Re: Slashdot Beta Sucks RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2014-02-07 19:35 +0000
          Re: Slashdot Beta Sucks Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2014-02-07 15:02 -0800
            Re: Slashdot Beta Sucks 2phar <none@example.com> - 2014-02-07 18:18 -0500
              Re: Slashdot Beta Sucks RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2014-02-08 00:12 +0000
                Re: Slashdot Beta Sucks Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2014-02-07 16:36 -0800
                  Re: Slashdot Beta Sucks Kees Nuyt <k.nuyt@nospam.demon.nl> - 2014-02-18 22:56 +0100
              Re: Slashdot Beta Sucks Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2014-02-07 16:33 -0800
              Re: Slashdot Beta Sucks Lance Orner <lance@orner.invalid.net> - 2014-02-09 03:23 +0000
    Re: Slashdot Beta Sucks CoolHand <coolhnd28@yahoo.com> - 2014-02-07 21:29 -0500
      Re: Slashdot Beta Sucks TrueSatan <true_satan@fastmail.co.uk> - 2014-02-08 02:48 +0000
        Re: Slashdot Beta Sucks CoolHand <coolhnd28@yahoo.com> - 2014-02-07 21:54 -0500
          Re: Slashdot Beta Sucks TrueSatan <true_satan@fastmail.co.uk> - 2014-02-08 04:09 +0000
          Re: Slashdot Beta Sucks Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2014-02-07 22:39 -0800
        Re: Slashdot Beta Sucks "Dirk T. Verbeek" <dverbeek@xs4all.nl> - 2014-02-08 12:09 +0000
          Re: Slashdot Beta Sucks brendan.halpin@ul.ie (Brendan Halpin) - 2014-02-19 23:24 +0000
    Re: Slashdot Beta Sucks 2phar <none@example.com> - 2014-02-07 23:15 -0500
      Re: Slashdot Beta Sucks Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2014-02-07 22:41 -0800
        Re: Slashdot Beta Sucks RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2014-02-08 20:03 +0000
          Re: Slashdot Beta Sucks 2phar <none@example.com> - 2014-02-08 15:16 -0500
            Re: Slashdot Beta Sucks Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2014-02-08 15:31 -0800
              Re: Slashdot Beta Sucks shvelven <shvelven@gmail.com> - 2014-02-09 02:30 -0500
                Re: Slashdot Beta Sucks TrueSatan <true_satan@fastmail.co.uk> - 2014-02-09 10:53 +0000
                Re: Slashdot Beta Sucks TrueSatan <true_satan@fastmail.co.uk> - 2014-02-09 10:54 +0000
                  Re: Slashdot Beta Sucks Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2014-02-09 15:35 +0000
              Re: Slashdot Beta Sucks Vince Mulhollon <vincemulhollon@gmail.com> - 2014-02-11 13:32 -0800
                Re: Slashdot Beta Sucks John Brownalt <deconfliction@filteredperception.org> - 2014-02-12 00:06 +0000
                Re: Slashdot Beta Sucks vehka <heikki.wilenius@gmail.com> - 2014-02-11 17:55 -0800
                  Re: Slashdot Beta Sucks "tdk" <forum.tdk@squte.com> - 2014-02-12 08:47 +0847
                  Re: Slashdot Beta Sucks Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2014-02-26 00:34 -0500
              Re: Slashdot Beta Sucks Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2014-02-25 23:43 -0500
    Re: Slashdot Beta -> Technical reasons? "q.kontinuum" <achsis_of_elvis@yahoo.com> - 2014-02-11 09:05 +0000
      Re: Slashdot Beta -> Technical reasons? John Brownalt <deconfliction@filteredperception.org> - 2014-02-11 12:11 +0000
        Re: Slashdot Beta -> Technical reasons? "q.kontinuum" <achsis_of_elvis@yahoo.com> - 2014-02-11 13:26 +0000
        Re: Slashdot Beta -> Technical reasons? Lance Orner <lance@orner.invalid.net> - 2014-02-12 03:38 +0000
      Re: Slashdot Beta -> Technical reasons? Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> - 2014-02-11 09:58 -0500

Page 2 of 2 — ← Prev page 1 [2]

#124

On 2014-02-08, Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 2014-02-08 04:15:05 +0000, 2phar said:
>
>> On 2/7/2014 5:45 AM, John Brownalt wrote:
>>> Welcome Slashdot Beta Exodus (just kidding, but it would be funny).
>>> 
>>> Watch out for that RocketRabbit, while I thank him/her for pointing
>>> me at eternal-september.org, I noted on slashdot a somewhat racist
>>> comment they made about Richard Stallman.
>>> 
>>> Still, it's nice to be back on usenet.  While there will never be a
>>> redesign of usenet, I do think there is immense space for custom
>>> readers that could potentially compete (even for mere mortals) with
>>> facebook, twitter, and slashdot.
>>> 
>>> Long Live USENET!!!
>>> 
>> 
>> Is comp.misc the best place for this... should we be proposing a
>> slashdot specific group... alt.portman.hotgrits  or whatever?
>
> Comp.misc seems to be totally abandoned, and is already carried by the
> news servers.  This is the main reason why I advocate its use - we
> certainly don't have to convince anybody to peer it and we won't piss
> off its current users.
>

I think that makes good sense.  I think it's also perfectly reasonable
for there to be a dual approach, where there's a website out there (I
actually dislike the name altslashdot because it smells like it will
lead us into legal trouble) with moderation and all that stuff, and in
parallel, an engaged community of us old farts who love(d) Usenet.

I started a new hierarchy - dictator.* - and have gone through the
trouble of getting NSPs to carry it, etc., and it's very hard.  So the
idea of starting a new group means either lots of work and time, or
convincing the Big-8 committee that manages the alt hierarchy to provide
a new group.  That's time, also, and probably some voting.

Meanwhile, comp.misc is just sitting here, unused.  I say we move in.
Or should we go for alt.comp.slashrefugees.  Maybe it's not impossible?

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#126

On 2/8/2014 3:03 PM, RS Wood wrote:
> On 2014-02-08, Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> wrote:
  slashdot specific group... alt.portman.hotgrits  or whatever?
>>
>> Comp.misc seems to be totally abandoned, and is already carried by the
>> news servers.  This is the main reason why I advocate its use - we
>> certainly don't have to convince anybody to peer it and we won't piss
>> off its current users.
>>
>
> I think that makes good sense.  I think it's also perfectly reasonable
> for there to be a dual approach, where there's a website out there (I
> actually dislike the name altslashdot because it smells like it will
> lead us into legal trouble) with moderation and all that stuff, and in
> parallel, an engaged community of us old farts who love(d) Usenet.
>
> I started a new hierarchy - dictator.* - and have gone through the
> trouble of getting NSPs to carry it, etc., and it's very hard.  So the
> idea of starting a new group means either lots of work and time, or
> convincing the Big-8 committee that manages the alt hierarchy to provide
> a new group.  That's time, also, and probably some voting.
>
> Meanwhile, comp.misc is just sitting here, unused.  I say we move in.
> Or should we go for alt.comp.slashrefugees.  Maybe it's not impossible?
>
Hanging out here makes sense alright..

Also occurs to me that slashdot covers a lot of non-comp stuff and some 
of that is already better covered in other usenet groups. There's really 
too many flamebait stories put on slashdot a lot of the time.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#134

On 2/8/2014 3:03 PM, RS Wood wrote:
> 
> I think that makes good sense.  I think it's also perfectly reasonable
> for there to be a dual approach, where there's a website out there (I
> actually dislike the name altslashdot because it smells like it will
> lead us into legal trouble) with moderation and all that stuff, and in
> parallel, an engaged community of us old farts who love(d) Usenet.
> 
> I started a new hierarchy - dictator.* - and have gone through the
> trouble of getting NSPs to carry it, etc., and it's very hard.  So the
> idea of starting a new group means either lots of work and time, or
> convincing the Big-8 committee that manages the alt hierarchy to provide
> a new group.  That's time, also, and probably some voting.
> 
> Meanwhile, comp.misc is just sitting here, unused.  I say we move in.
> Or should we go for alt.comp.slashrefugees.  Maybe it's not impossible?

The altslashdot web site is just an idea for an idea at this point.  I 
wish them luck, but even if they get it off the ground and attract a 
significant share of ex-Slashdotters the site will still be vulnerable 
to the traps that have ruined, or are runing Slashdot itself.  There 
will be somebody in charge, there will be ads, there will be 
administrators with greater privileges than the normal peons, etc.  
We're here now and this place works, so let's stick to it for the time 
being, at least that's my plan.

On 2014-02-08 20:16:01 +0000, 2phar said:
> Hanging out here makes sense alright..
> 
> Also occurs to me that slashdot covers a lot of non-comp stuff and some 
> of that is already better covered in other usenet groups. There's 
> really too many flamebait stories put on slashdot a lot of the time.

This is an excellent point.  I think that if we can get people to come 
(back?) to Usenet they will discover the large variety of groups that 
are still active.  rec.food.cooking is extremely successful, probably 
the best cooking forum on the whole internet despite the many 
for-profit forums addressing this topic.  rec.heraldry is fascinating 
and as far as I know, the only really active discussion group on this 
topic around.  There are plenty of defunct groups of course, but Usenet 
is still a very vibrant community.

My hope is that if we can work together and convince not just Slashers 
but others to come into Usenet we can help this place flourish again.  
Frankly I much prefer it to Reddit and those kinds of web sites.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#145

Oregonian Haruspex wrote:

> On 2/8/2014 3:03 PM, RS Wood wrote:
>> 
>> I think that makes good sense.  I think it's also perfectly
>> reasonable for there to be a dual approach, where there's a website
>> out there (I actually dislike the name altslashdot because it smells
>> like it will lead us into legal trouble) with moderation and all that
>> stuff, and in parallel, an engaged community of us old farts who
>> love(d) Usenet.
>> 
>> I started a new hierarchy - dictator.* - and have gone through the
>> trouble of getting NSPs to carry it, etc., and it's very hard.  So
>> the idea of starting a new group means either lots of work and time,
>> or convincing the Big-8 committee that manages the alt hierarchy to
>> provide
>> a new group.  That's time, also, and probably some voting.
>> 
>> Meanwhile, comp.misc is just sitting here, unused.  I say we move in.
>> Or should we go for alt.comp.slashrefugees.  Maybe it's not
>> impossible?
> 
> The altslashdot web site is just an idea for an idea at this point.  I
> wish them luck, but even if they get it off the ground and attract a
> significant share of ex-Slashdotters the site will still be vulnerable
> to the traps that have ruined, or are runing Slashdot itself.  There
> will be somebody in charge, there will be ads, there will be
> administrators with greater privileges than the normal peons, etc.
> We're here now and this place works, so let's stick to it for the time
> being, at least that's my plan.
> 
> On 2014-02-08 20:16:01 +0000, 2phar said:
>> Hanging out here makes sense alright..
>> 
>> Also occurs to me that slashdot covers a lot of non-comp stuff and
>> some of that is already better covered in other usenet groups.
>> There's really too many flamebait stories put on slashdot a lot of
>> the time.
> 
> This is an excellent point.  I think that if we can get people to come
> (back?) to Usenet they will discover the large variety of groups that
> are still active.  rec.food.cooking is extremely successful, probably
> the best cooking forum on the whole internet despite the many
> for-profit forums addressing this topic.  rec.heraldry is fascinating
> and as far as I know, the only really active discussion group on this
> topic around.  There are plenty of defunct groups of course, but
> Usenet is still a very vibrant community.
> 
> My hope is that if we can work together and convince not just Slashers
> but others to come into Usenet we can help this place flourish again.
> Frankly I much prefer it to Reddit and those kinds of web sites.

Have you guys seen what they're doing over at altslash? They don't even 
have slashcode up and running yet and they're already deviating farther 
from slashdot than the beta does! 

Seriously, check out 
"http://www.altslashdot.org/wiki/index.php?title=FeatureList" and see 
what they want to do to the modding system. Don't forget to read the 
talk page.

I think at this point we should just resign ourselves to the fact that 
slashdot will be no more if dice goes through with the beta.

-- 
Fuck Beta

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#147

shvelven wrote:

> Oregonian Haruspex wrote:
> 
>> On 2/8/2014 3:03 PM, RS Wood wrote:
>>> 
>>> I think that makes good sense.  I 
think it's also perfectly
>>> reasonable for there to be a dual 
approach, where there's a website
>>> out there (I actually dislike the 
name altslashdot because it smells
>>> like it will lead us into legal 
trouble) with moderation and all that
>>> stuff, and in parallel, an engaged 
community of us old farts who
>>> love(d) Usenet.
>>> 
>>> I started a new hierarchy - 
dictator.* - and have gone through the
>>> trouble of getting NSPs to carry it, 
etc., and it's very hard.  So
>>> the idea of starting a new group 
means either lots of work and time,
>>> or convincing the Big-8 committee 
that manages the alt hierarchy to
>>> provide
>>> a new group.  That's time, also, and 
probably some voting.
>>> 
>>> Meanwhile, comp.misc is just sitting 
here, unused.  I say we move in.
>>> Or should we go for 
alt.comp.slashrefugees.  Maybe it's not
>>> impossible?
>> 
>> The altslashdot web site is just an 
idea for an idea at this point.  I
>> wish them luck, but even if they get 
it off the ground and attract a
>> significant share of ex-Slashdotters 
the site will still be vulnerable
>> to the traps that have ruined, or are 
runing Slashdot itself.  There
>> will be somebody in charge, there will 
be ads, there will be
>> administrators with greater privileges 
than the normal peons, etc.
>> We're here now and this place works, 
so let's stick to it for the time
>> being, at least that's my plan.
>> 
>> On 2014-02-08 20:16:01 +0000, 2phar 
said:
>>> Hanging out here makes sense 
alright..
>>> 
>>> Also occurs to me that slashdot 
covers a lot of non-comp stuff and
>>> some of that is already better 
covered in other usenet groups.
>>> There's really too many flamebait 
stories put on slashdot a lot of
>>> the time.
>> 
>> This is an excellent point.  I think 
that if we can get people to come
>> (back?) to Usenet they will discover 
the large variety of groups that
>> are still active.  rec.food.cooking is 
extremely successful, probably
>> the best cooking forum on the whole 
internet despite the many
>> for-profit forums addressing this 
topic.  rec.heraldry is fascinating
>> and as far as I know, the only really 
active discussion group on this
>> topic around.  There are plenty of 
defunct groups of course, but
>> Usenet is still a very vibrant 
community.
>> 
>> My hope is that if we can work 
together and convince not just Slashers
>> but others to come into Usenet we can 
help this place flourish again.
>> Frankly I much prefer it to Reddit and 
those kinds of web sites.
> 
> Have you guys seen what they're doing 
over at altslash? They don't even
> have slashcode up and running yet and 
they're already deviating farther
> from slashdot than the beta does!
> 
> Seriously, check out
> 
"http://www.altslashdot.org/wiki/index.php?title=FeatureList" 
and see
> what they want to do to the modding 
system. Don't forget to read the
> talk page.
> 
> I think at this point we should just 
resign ourselves to the fact that
> slashdot will be no more if dice goes 
through with the beta.
> 
Good grief...I barely got through that 
verbose drivel thanks to rapid onset 
acute nausea.

 The main thing I took from his thinking 
is that he and his buddies would rule 
over everyone else with as iron a fist as 
he could summon up.

 There was no thought given, absolutely 
none, to community selection of 
moderators/admins and/or community 
ability to remove same...in fact the 
community seem more like a herd of sheep 
than anything else.

 The idea of channels being private 
fiefdoms for those who are the elite 
rankles with me too...he even plans to 
deny use of individual channels unless 
the channel mod subscribes a user to that 
channel.

 His thinking is all about control of the 
community and not empowerment of same.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#148

shvelven wrote:

> Oregonian Haruspex wrote:
> 
>> On 2/8/2014 3:03 PM, RS Wood wrote:
>>> 
>>> I think that makes good sense.  I 
think it's also perfectly
>>> reasonable for there to be a dual 
approach, where there's a website
>>> out there (I actually dislike the 
name altslashdot because it smells
>>> like it will lead us into legal 
trouble) with moderation and all that
>>> stuff, and in parallel, an engaged 
community of us old farts who
>>> love(d) Usenet.
>>> 
>>> I started a new hierarchy - 
dictator.* - and have gone through the
>>> trouble of getting NSPs to carry it, 
etc., and it's very hard.  So
>>> the idea of starting a new group 
means either lots of work and time,
>>> or convincing the Big-8 committee 
that manages the alt hierarchy to
>>> provide
>>> a new group.  That's time, also, and 
probably some voting.
>>> 
>>> Meanwhile, comp.misc is just sitting 
here, unused.  I say we move in.
>>> Or should we go for 
alt.comp.slashrefugees.  Maybe it's not
>>> impossible?
>> 
>> The altslashdot web site is just an 
idea for an idea at this point.  I
>> wish them luck, but even if they get 
it off the ground and attract a
>> significant share of ex-Slashdotters 
the site will still be vulnerable
>> to the traps that have ruined, or are 
runing Slashdot itself.  There
>> will be somebody in charge, there will 
be ads, there will be
>> administrators with greater privileges 
than the normal peons, etc.
>> We're here now and this place works, 
so let's stick to it for the time
>> being, at least that's my plan.
>> 
>> On 2014-02-08 20:16:01 +0000, 2phar 
said:
>>> Hanging out here makes sense 
alright..
>>> 
>>> Also occurs to me that slashdot 
covers a lot of non-comp stuff and
>>> some of that is already better 
covered in other usenet groups.
>>> There's really too many flamebait 
stories put on slashdot a lot of
>>> the time.
>> 
>> This is an excellent point.  I think 
that if we can get people to come
>> (back?) to Usenet they will discover 
the large variety of groups that
>> are still active.  rec.food.cooking is 
extremely successful, probably
>> the best cooking forum on the whole 
internet despite the many
>> for-profit forums addressing this 
topic.  rec.heraldry is fascinating
>> and as far as I know, the only really 
active discussion group on this
>> topic around.  There are plenty of 
defunct groups of course, but
>> Usenet is still a very vibrant 
community.
>> 
>> My hope is that if we can work 
together and convince not just Slashers
>> but others to come into Usenet we can 
help this place flourish again.
>> Frankly I much prefer it to Reddit and 
those kinds of web sites.
> 
> Have you guys seen what they're doing 
over at altslash? They don't even
> have slashcode up and running yet and 
they're already deviating farther
> from slashdot than the beta does!
> 
> Seriously, check out
> 
"http://www.altslashdot.org/wiki/index.php?title=FeatureList" 
and see
> what they want to do to the modding 
system. Don't forget to read the
> talk page.
> 
> I think at this point we should just 
resign ourselves to the fact that
> slashdot will be no more if dice goes 
through with the beta.
> 
shvelven wrote:

Good grief...I barely got through that 
verbose drivel thanks to rapid onset 
acute nausea.

 The main thing I took from his thinking 
is that he and his buddies would rule 
over everyone else with as iron a fist as 
he could summon up.

 There was no thought given, absolutely 
none, to community selection of 
moderators/admins and/or community 
ability to remove same...in fact the 
community seem more like a herd of sheep 
than anything else.

 The idea of channels being private 
fiefdoms for those who are the elite 
rankles with me too...he even plans to 
deny use of individual channels unless 
the channel mod subscribes a user to that 
channel.

 His thinking is all about control of the 
community and not empowerment of same.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#156

I wish any person who thinks they can replace Slashdot luck.  They will
need it.  However, this little debacle, even if Dice does not ultimately
foist Beta upon the community, exposes a weakness inherent in all web-based
communities.  Even assuming an unimpeachably honorable webmaster, domain
registrations can lapse, sites can get rooted, data centers can burn down,
the cat can knock a full carafe of coffee onto the server...

I consider myself to be at least halfway intelligent but I will admit that
I was stupid or at least inexcusably naive.  This naivety extends to my use
of commercial "free", ad-supported, government-surveillance friendly email
services.  Now that I am going Dice-free (won't be posting there any more
except to promote Usenet) the next stage is planning how to go Google-free.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#270

On Saturday, February 8, 2014 5:31:14 PM UTC-6, Oregonian Haruspex wrote:
> This is an excellent point.  I think that if we can get people to come 
> (back?) to Usenet they will discover the large variety of groups that 
> are still active.

On the other hand I left rec.crafts.metalworking in the late 90s because it was under perpetual political rant spamflood attacks that seemed unfilterable, at last to non-computer-types who had something of value to say, because they couldn't figure out how to filter the spam (heck I could barely figure it out myself, it was a vicious attack), they left, so there was nothing to read but the eternal infinite spamflood attacks, which I'm told are still going on to this day.

Another group I had to leave was alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt around 1993 or so.  It was intended as a place for people like me to talk about mark-8s (well, I don't remember if the -8 existed then, but at least in spirit...) and homemade relay based ALU designs and homemade DTL NAND gates and basically relive the 70s at least WRT home computing, at least as we experienced it as kids.  Instead it was painfully crossposted about 50 times a day with idiotic questions about the dumbest contemporary PC hardware configuration problems.  "I can't figure out the well labeled I/O jumpers on my soundblaster, could someone on the internet read the manual for me, and do the thinking for me too?"  It was a flood of junk, had to leave.  The worst part is you couldn't zap everything crossposted because 1) You'd just get a different brand of idiot that asked the same dumb question without crossposting 2) Actual on topic crossposting would get zapped so people crossposting into the z80 group talking about their homemade home designed SBC would get zapped.  It was awful.

One flood was intentional and malicious and the other was just eternal September non-malicious idiocy but in both cases nothing could be done about it other than leave.  I'm not sure what, if anything, has changed, that would save "us" in 2014.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#274

On 2014-02-11, Vince Mulhollon <vincemulhollon@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, February 8, 2014 5:31:14 PM UTC-6, Oregonian Haruspex wrote:
>> This is an excellent point.  I think that if we can get people to come 
>> (back?) to Usenet they will discover the large variety of groups that 
>> are still active.
>
> On the other hand I left rec.crafts.metalworking in the late 90s because it was under perpetual political rant spamflood attacks that seemed unfilterable, at last to non-computer-types who had something of value to say, because they couldn't figure out how to filter the spam (heck I could barely figure it out myself, it was a vicious attack), they left, so there was nothing to read but the eternal infinite spamflood attacks, which I'm told are still going on to this day.
>
> Another group I had to leave was alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt around 1993 or so.  It was intended as a place for people like me to talk about mark-8s (well, I don't remember if the -8 existed then, but at least in spirit...) and homemade relay based ALU designs and homemade DTL NAND gates and basically relive the 70s at least WRT home computing, at least as we experienced it as kids.  Instead it was painfully crossposted about 50 times a day with idiotic questions about the dumbest contemporary PC hardware configuration problems.  "I can't figure out the well labeled I/O jumpers on my soundblaster, could someone on the internet read the manual for me, and do the thinking for me too?"  It was a flood of junk, had to leave.  The worst part is you couldn't zap everything crossposted because 1) You'd just get a different brand of idiot that asked the same dumb question without crossposting 2) Actual on topic crossposting would get zapped so people crossposting into the z80 group talking about their homemade home designed SBC would get zapped.  It was awful.
>
> One flood was intentional and malicious and the other was just eternal September non-malicious idiocy but in both cases nothing could be done about it other than leave.

> I'm not sure what, if anything, has changed, that would save "us" in 2014.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Here is my optimistic theory-

What has changed is the Snowden revelations.  I'm not suggesting usenet is
going to become truly a viable thing for us this month, or this year.  But
this decade, I have hopes.

On the Snowden front, consider the history of mozilla and advertisers.  The
reason that advertising is so pervasive, is not because the software
technology to block and filter it doesn't exist, or is hard.  Clearly
adblock and noscript are there.  But the problem was that mozilla caved
to the pressure from advertisers in the beginning.  I.e. by not ingesting
adblock and noscript (perhaps default off even).  This was a clear case where
open source failed.  Those were clearly useful features that users wanted,
that there was no technical reason not to merge into the open source project.
The only reason they didn't get merged years ago (again, perhaps default off,
but available via prefs for users to enable without having to seperately
install some add-on)- was because of megacorp advertising pressure.

With the advent of the Snowden revelations, for instance the recent one
about the NSA piggybacking on advertising cookies and so forth, there has
been a fundamental shift in the landscape.  No more can the kind of sell-out
arguments that mozilla gave hold sway with the public.  No more can they
claim that the importance of placating the advertising community outweighs
the technical and user-desired privacy benefits of merging in features like
adblock and noscript.  (and if I'm still wrong about that today, I think
within 10 years, people will come around to that wisdom)

The next fundamental thing that has changed is the coming IPv6 future where
everyone can run servers at their home.  Now, setting asside my seemingly
going-down-in-flames net neutrality crusade against GoogleFiber, I still
believe that like it or not, 20 years from now all users on the internet will
have the ability to run servers at their residence, publicly addressable via
IPv6.  This is what will allow more distributed communication systems like
nntp and diaspora to flourish.  Clearly without the bandwidth, or the ability
to run a server, setting up a truly distributed system like nntp without
gatekeepers just wasn't possible.  But as storage capacity becomes much 
cheaper, it becomes much more viable for a landscape where everyone has their
own usenet spools with at least the list of groups they are subscribed to.
Again, yes, I'm clearly losing my 'right to serve' fight in the near term.
But I think it is inevitable that in the long term everyone will have personal
servers, if not embedded in their heads or earrings, then at least in their
cell-phones or wall-warts.

Again, it may take 20 or 100 years of polishing, but I think we will get 
there.  We may have to violently overthrow OCP (sorry, just watched
1987-robocop[1][2]), but we will get there.

And as I mentioned in a previous post, the solution to spam and other
information warfare is doable with social networking and webs of trust.  
I.e. you maintain killfiles and friends lists/circles, and these get
automatically propogated to result in the sorts of personalized datastreams
that we see on FB and G+ (I vaguely recall that G+ lifted their ideas from
diaspora after the diaspora lead-dev committed suicide) The key is to just
remember that it is totally doable with the tech we already have, and the
tech we are clearly going to have 20 years from now.

People have now had their eyes opened to what the NSA was doing.  I.e. taking
full advantage via PRISM of the ease of MITM-ing Skype and GoogleHangouts.
People will figure out that an open source solution that involves video calls
that are encrypted, and IPv6 direct between them and their friends are a
fundamentally better thing than going through a corporation like Microsoft or
Google, which are trivially easy for the NSA to infiltrate.

$0.02...

-dmc

[1] http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-57617686-76/robocop-not-so-sci-fi-anymore/
[2] http://mega.co.nz/#!G1YQUDJY!d01k313ZXF3l5eT7xfchiEVPH_VVBgkTlo_IdvUXbkA
(please only visit [2] for educational fair use purposes only)

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#275

On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 4:32:29 AM UTC+7, Vince Mulhollon wrote:

> On the other hand I left rec.crafts.metalworking in the late 90s because it
> was under perpetual political rant spamflood attacks that seemed
> unfilterable, at last to non-computer-types who had something of value to
> say, because they couldn't figure out how to filter the spam

<clipped>

Weird, it's been years since I've posted anything on Usenet. Yeah I guess the newsgroups largely fell apart because they didn't scale up, and there wasn't enough means to combat all the noise, problems that Slashdot (of yore?) did solve quite brilliantly...

I'd love to see an attempt at a next-generation NNTP, but I don't know how realistic this would be. Something for a fund-raising campaign?

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#304

> I'd love to see an attempt at a next-generation NNTP, 

There is a proposal for something here [1], although it is just a proposal at 
present. 

[1] http://squte.com/communion-network 

~tdk 
-- 
View this thread at http://squte.com/node/4365#comment-10258

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#949

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014, vehka wrote:

> On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 4:32:29 AM UTC+7, Vince Mulhollon wrote:
>
>> On the other hand I left rec.crafts.metalworking in the late 90s because it
>> was under perpetual political rant spamflood attacks that seemed
>> unfilterable, at last to non-computer-types who had something of value to
>> say, because they couldn't figure out how to filter the spam
>
> <clipped>
>
> Weird, it's been years since I've posted anything on Usenet. Yeah I 
> guess the newsgroups largely fell apart because they didn't scale up, 
> and there wasn't enough means to combat all the noise, problems that 
> Slashdot (of yore?) did solve quite brilliantly...
>
No, it's more like people left, leaving the hardcore and the loonies.

Any newsgroup with decent traffic is now likely to get flooded, because 
it's a viable newsgroup.  Any low traffic newsgroup may get spam, but it 
won't get the cross-posted junk because it's not worth it to the poster.

In essence, in a lot of cases, the actual traffic went down, which meant 
the junk was a bigger percentage of the traffic.  I've seen the same 
complaint since 1996, people dismiss usenet "because of the junk" when all 
they see is junk because few are actually posting.

   Michael


> I'd love to see an attempt at a next-generation NNTP, but I don't know 
> how realistic this would be. Something for a fund-raising campaign?
>

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#941

On Sat, 8 Feb 2014, Oregonian Haruspex wrote:

> On 2/8/2014 3:03 PM, RS Wood wrote:
>> 
>> I think that makes good sense.  I think it's also perfectly reasonable
>> for there to be a dual approach, where there's a website out there (I
>> actually dislike the name altslashdot because it smells like it will
>> lead us into legal trouble) with moderation and all that stuff, and in
>> parallel, an engaged community of us old farts who love(d) Usenet.
>> 
>> I started a new hierarchy - dictator.* - and have gone through the
>> trouble of getting NSPs to carry it, etc., and it's very hard.  So the
>> idea of starting a new group means either lots of work and time, or
>> convincing the Big-8 committee that manages the alt hierarchy to provide
>> a new group.  That's time, also, and probably some voting.
>> 
>> Meanwhile, comp.misc is just sitting here, unused.  I say we move in.
>> Or should we go for alt.comp.slashrefugees.  Maybe it's not impossible?
>
> The altslashdot web site is just an idea for an idea at this point.  I wish 
> them luck, but even if they get it off the ground and attract a significant 
> share of ex-Slashdotters the site will still be vulnerable to the traps that 
> have ruined, or are runing Slashdot itself.  There will be somebody in 
> charge, there will be ads, there will be administrators with greater 
> privileges than the normal peons, etc.  We're here now and this place works, 
> so let's stick to it for the time being, at least that's my plan.
>
> On 2014-02-08 20:16:01 +0000, 2phar said:
>> Hanging out here makes sense alright..
>> 
>> Also occurs to me that slashdot covers a lot of non-comp stuff and some of 
>> that is already better covered in other usenet groups. There's really too 
>> many flamebait stories put on slashdot a lot of the time.
>
> This is an excellent point.  I think that if we can get people to come 
> (back?) to Usenet they will discover the large variety of groups that are 
> still active.  rec.food.cooking is extremely successful, probably the best 
> cooking forum on the whole internet despite the many for-profit forums 
> addressing this topic.  rec.heraldry is fascinating and as far as I know, the 
> only really active discussion group on this topic around.  There are plenty 
> of defunct groups of course, but Usenet is still a very vibrant community.
>
> My hope is that if we can work together and convince not just Slashers but 
> others to come into Usenet we can help this place flourish again.  Frankly I 
> much prefer it to Reddit and those kinds of web sites.
>
>
Except, why did everyone leave?

Some of us have never left, so it's amusing to see some of these comments. 
I know about that website, but visited it maybe half a dozen times.  The 
fact that so many are now so upset about this change or whatever suggests 
people went where the action was, and left usenet behind.

Only when you figure out why you left usenet will you have a handle on how 
to bring people back.  And don't step on the toes of those of us who never 
left, we are the ones who kept it alive, not the people who left.

   Michael

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#240 — Re: Slashdot Beta -> Technical reasons?

I agree Slashdot Beta sucks. But could there be some technical reasons 
for the decision to update nevertheless? Apparently the current backend 
code relies on specific outdated perl versions etc. Maybe there are 
security concerns regarding the older version.

For the usenet-solution: No-one prevents other users to spam the group 
with unrelated articles, or even with well intended "articles" no sane 
nerd is actually interested in. I'm afraid this group might turn into a 
mess very soon if even half of the slashdot readers finds its way here. I 
also miss slashdot rating system. On slashdot it is easy to find valuable 
comments, just ignore ratings < 2 (unless you have mod-points) and 5 (if 
it's rated 5, it is most likely obvious and agreeable by everyone, so 
usually boring. 3 or 4 is usually sensible enough for some to understand, 
but still not obvious enough that every moderator automatically agrees :-
))

I would love to see access via nntp protocol to soylentnews, with message 
headers containing current scores. Users with mod-points would have to 
use the web-version, and as an incentive to use it (to generate ad-
revenue to pay for infrastructure) mod-points could be awarded only to 
those who use web.

-- 
Trolling is a art!

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#247 — Re: Slashdot Beta -> Technical reasons?

On 2014-02-11, q.kontinuum <achsis_of_elvis@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I agree Slashdot Beta sucks. But could there be some technical reasons 
> for the decision to update nevertheless? Apparently the current backend 
> code relies on specific outdated perl versions etc. Maybe there are 
> security concerns regarding the older version.
>
> For the usenet-solution: No-one prevents other users to spam the group 
> with unrelated articles, or even with well intended "articles" no sane 
> nerd is actually interested in. I'm afraid this group might turn into a 
> mess very soon if even half of the slashdot readers finds its way here.

Yes, I think if even 1% things would get messy.  I'm still figuring out
various sort methods in slrn.  Anybody know how to "un catch-up a thread"?
(yes, I know, I have the source code :)

 I 
> also miss slashdot rating system. On slashdot it is easy to find valuable 
> comments, just ignore ratings < 2 (unless you have mod-points) and 5 (if 
> it's rated 5, it is most likely obvious and agreeable by everyone, so 
> usually boring. 3 or 4 is usually sensible enough for some to understand, 
> but still not obvious enough that every moderator automatically agrees :-
> ))
>
> I would love to see access via nntp protocol to soylentnews, with message 
> headers containing current scores. Users with mod-points would have to 
> use the web-version, and as an incentive to use it (to generate ad-
> revenue to pay for infrastructure) mod-points could be awarded only to 
> those who use web.

I made my previous post before seeing that someone else had started thinking
about this.  Here are some random thoughts I've had about the issue, that
actually relate to similar thoughts I have for improving pokerth(.net)-

I think it might (with a lot of work) be possible to add more social
networking and web-of-trust features on top of usenet.  Probably I'm just
ignorant of the existing scoring systems (I certainly am, I still have lots
of basics of slrn to relearn, or learn for the first time (it was called
trn last time I used it).

I.e. take your kill-file for starters.  That seems the first way to cut the
noise from the signal.  What you need next it seems, is to add a social
networking web-of-trust component to that.  I.e. you have one or more circles/
levels of friends.  And in addition to that causing their posts to get 
emphasized in your post-list, that should also cause their kill files to 
get emphasized within your own kill list.

Anyway, that's my start.  Probably I'm just rehashing social-networking
theory laid out by diaspora or other researchers I never bothered to look
at.  But hey, I'm having fun adding my own noise and signal here :)

(the pokerth connection is the same basic issue for blocking chat from other
players)

Cheers,

-dmc

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#249 — Re: Slashdot Beta -> Technical reasons?

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 12:11:07 +0000, John Brownalt wrote:

> On 2014-02-11, q.kontinuum <achsis_of_elvis@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I'm still figuring out
> various sort methods in slrn.  Anybody know how to "un catch-up a
> thread"? (yes, I know, I have the source code :)

Actually I switched to pan, and my slrn-times are years ago...

> I.e. take your kill-file for starters.  That seems the first way to cut
> the noise from the signal.  What you need next it seems, is to add a
> social networking web-of-trust component to that.  I.e. you have one or
> more circles/
> levels of friends.  And in addition to that causing their posts to get
> emphasized in your post-list, that should also cause their kill files to
> get emphasized within your own kill list.

This sounds interesting, but might trigger the problem of creating your 
own filter bubble http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filter_bubble, which is 
partially avoided by slashdot-like moderation. 

Slightly related, but not as an opposing view:
The pirate party in Germany has an interesting concept for decisions, 
which might be adopted: For each decision, each member has a vote. But if 
there are topics it feels it is not proficient enough, it can delegate 
his vote to some other party member for a specific topic.

However, this would work again better with a moderation system like 
soylentnews than usenet.

-- 
Trolling is a art!

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#276 — Re: Slashdot Beta -> Technical reasons?

On 2014-02-11, John Brownalt <deconfliction@filteredperception.org> wrote:
> Yes, I think if even 1% things would get messy.  I'm still figuring out
> various sort methods in slrn.  Anybody know how to "un catch-up a thread"?
> (yes, I know, I have the source code :)

"Esc P" will go to the parent, and then once there "Esc Cntl-P" will
get all of the children.  Since old headers aren't remembered, slrn
will have to retreive them, so this takes a little work.

There is where newer readers like Pan are a bit better, since they
cache all headers and keep them, but I still like the command line.
Besides, I can SSH into this if I want.

-- 
  Lance Orner (lance@orner.net)

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#255 — Re: Slashdot Beta -> Technical reasons?

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 09:05:47 +0000 (UTC), "q.kontinuum"
<achsis_of_elvis@yahoo.com> wrote:

>I agree Slashdot Beta sucks. But could there be some technical reasons 
>for the decision to update nevertheless? Apparently the current backend 
>code relies on specific outdated perl versions etc. Maybe there are 
>security concerns regarding the older version.

It wouldn't surprise me. But it's not so much the reason for the
change as the way Dice rolled it out that upset the community. They
probably would have been better off updating the back-end and
front-end seperately, and making changes to the user interface in
small increments. 

Plus that whole "we listen to your feedback" thing? They should
actually do it. People were laughingly pointing out the things they
didn't like about beta since they first unveiled it in October. That
Dice pushed it on users pretty much unchanged puts the lie to their
claims that they were "listening".

Still, although the evidence is against them I am still willing to
give Dice the benefit of the doubt; they could very well have started
the redesign with the very best of intentions: to replace the site
using easier-to-manage code that would both attract new eyeballs
whilst still serving the need of the existing audience. Obviously they
failed at the latter (and judging from some of the comments, the code
isn't much improved either), but that implies nothing about their
intent. 

If Dice truly desires to serve the existing community it needs to be
more open with its plans and engage its current audience better. God
knows they haven't done a good job so far (I mean, aside from the
whole beta thing, there is their lackluster job at editorial policing
for the last two years, allowing badly proofread articles, obvious
slashvertisments and dupes by the dozens). It's no wonder the audience
is up in arms. Dice should be as open and detailed as possible; it's
not as if Slashdotters don't relish in technical arcana. Not only will
it build trust and good will, those sort of discussions will likely
grow traffic (Dice might pick up some good ideas from the conversation
too).

Anyway, Dice is a corporation and even if they do intend to reverse
course, we shouldn't expect an immediate turn-around. It takes time
for that sort of stuff to happen, especially since it has to be
"managed" in a way that doesn't imply Dice did anything /wrong/.

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