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Differences between versions

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  Differences between versions Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2025-02-08 19:26 -0500
    Re: Differences between versions Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-02-08 23:28 -0500
      Re: Differences between versions Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2025-02-09 08:25 -0500
        Re: Differences between versions MR <MR@invalid.invalid> - 2025-02-09 16:51 +0000
          Re: Differences between versions Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2025-02-09 13:36 -0500
            Re: Differences between versions Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-02-09 15:23 -0500
              Re: Differences between versions Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2025-02-09 16:18 -0500
        Re: Differences between versions ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ  <winstonmvp@gmail.com> - 2025-02-09 14:35 -0700
          Re: Differences between versions Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2025-02-09 17:39 -0500
            Re: Differences between versions ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ  <winstonmvp@gmail.com> - 2025-02-09 16:25 -0700
              Re: Differences between versions Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2025-02-09 19:43 -0500
                Re: Differences between versions Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-02-10 00:45 -0500
                  Re: Differences between versions Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-02-10 02:30 -0500
                    Re: Differences between versions Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2025-02-10 08:08 -0500

#182134 — Differences between versions

    I have an old Win7 Dell that I updated to Win1020H2. 22H2
refused to do anything but a fresh install, but 20H2 updated
and accepted the OEM license.

   I decided to then test updating from 20H2 to 22H2. No go.
Then I was reading that the system files are identical from
2004 to 22H2.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/kb5015684-featured-update-to-windows-10-version-22h2-by-using-an-enablement-package-09d43632-f438-47b5-985e-d6fd704eee61

   So now I'm curious. Is there any official listing of what's different?
I assume that I'm missing a lot of security updates in 20H2
that I won't be able to get, but is there anything else noteworthy?
I remove Edge and Apps, so none of that matters to me. I had
assumed that each year updated system files. Has there really been
no change aside from fluff and security patches in 5 years?

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#182136

On Sat, 2/8/2025 7:26 PM, Newyana2 wrote:
>    I have an old Win7 Dell that I updated to Win1020H2. 22H2
> refused to do anything but a fresh install, but 20H2 updated
> and accepted the OEM license.
> 
>   I decided to then test updating from 20H2 to 22H2. No go.
> Then I was reading that the system files are identical from
> 2004 to 22H2.
> 
> https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/kb5015684-featured-update-to-windows-10-version-22h2-by-using-an-enablement-package-09d43632-f438-47b5-985e-d6fd704eee61
> 
>   So now I'm curious. Is there any official listing of what's different?
> I assume that I'm missing a lot of security updates in 20H2
> that I won't be able to get, but is there anything else noteworthy?
> I remove Edge and Apps, so none of that matters to me. I had
> assumed that each year updated system files. Has there really been
> no change aside from fluff and security patches in 5 years?

19H2    November 2019 Update    18363
20H1    May 2020 Update         19041 \
20H2    October 2020 Update     19042  \
21H1    May 2021 Update         19043   \___ Funny numeric pattern
21H2    November 2021 Update    19044   /
22H2    2022 Update             19045  /

Graphics card: DirectX 9 or later with WDDM 1.0 driver

You may be able to update to 21H2, as it is
possible that 22H2 kicked out XDDM graphics
drivers. My Optiplex 780, to get 22H2 to install
on it, I added a video card that barely met the
requirements (it has a WDDM 1.1 driver).

Currently supported video cards are WDDM 3.3 or better,
to give some idea what version is supported now. There
is support for DirectX 12 Ultimate (whatever that means).

while you could use Rufus and try to update to 22H2,
there is no specific leverage in Rufus for old graphics
subsystems. The Optiplex 780 had Q45, which is GMA 4500,
a rather crapulent iGPU. That's slightly before Intel
learned how to make GPUs.

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/000005581/graphics.html

If you have a laptop, it's rather difficult to update
the graphics. A USB DisplayLink adapter nominally
is "graphics", but I don't think the subsystem support
is quite good enough to fool the Windows installer :-)

Laptops no longer have ExpressCard slots, that I have seen,
so there is no "sneaky way" of adding a display adapter "box"
to the side of the laptop. The M.2 NVMe slot might work, as a
source of lanes for the task, but then, if you have an M.2,
then chances are your graphics are good enough for the job
of passing any tests.

My single core laptop, I don't think the graphics are in
such good shape, but the acceleration offered might be
slightly better than the Optiplex 780.

*******

The DXdiag.exe executable in your OS, the Display tab tells
you what XDDM or WDDM driver level the machine is at currently.
That might hint at how dire the graphics are.

There is CPU-Z (cpuid.com , portable version) and GPU-Z
(techpowerup.com is the drop site of the developer of it).
CPU-Z can give you a good idea of what hardware you've got,
for these OS-level issues. GPU-Z merely adds the necessary
"color commentary" on subsystem specifics ("do I have PHYSX").

Those three might prepare you a bit for hardware issues.

*******

The OS is a rolling release, with random changes.
What ever gave you the idea it actually stood still :-)
The kernel is constantly being patched. And based
on feedback from VirtualBox devs, even kernel calls
have had the number of parameters in a call changed,
as an example of what they've had to deal with.

Even if you look in WinSxS and you find four different
versions of a library, is it safe to assume the API is
the same on all of them ? Knowing how developers think,
the answer to that is "No". The last time I had people
who cared about compatibility, it was on SunOS 4.1.3U1 .

One of the reasons we have version control systems,
is to let fools move fast and break things. The version control,
the dependency analysis, is the "cleanup in aisle three".
Just how Windows Defender interacts with a system, has
to take into account discovered exploits. And some things
have to be changed out of necessity (CVE at the 10 level).

Summary: I would make an effort to get the "max support"
         out of my OS. Even if in my case, it meant fishing
         a vid card out of the junk room to do it.

         At the moment, I don't see a reason you could not
         get to 21H2.

         You should keep a series of DVDs, when approaching
         end of life for an OS. If you notice some funny
         "slowing down" behavior, then use an older version
         of the OS to get a bit of performance back again.
         I'm not proposing installing a copy of 9928, but I
         bet it runs faster :-)

         There's only 270GB of OS DVDs on my computer.
         What a pauper. There is another terabyte of them
         across the room.

   Paul

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#182142

On 2/8/2025 11:28 PM, Paul wrote:

> 19H2    November 2019 Update    18363
> 20H1    May 2020 Update         19041 \
> 20H2    October 2020 Update     19042  \
> 21H1    May 2021 Update         19043   \___ Funny numeric pattern
> 21H2    November 2021 Update    19044   /
> 22H2    2022 Update             19045  /
> 
> Graphics card: DirectX 9 or later with WDDM 1.0 driver
> 
> You may be able to update to 21H2, as it is
> possible that 22H2 kicked out XDDM graphics
> drivers. My Optiplex 780, to get 22H2 to install
> on it, I added a video card that barely met the
> requirements (it has a WDDM 1.1 driver).
> 

  21H2 might work. I haven't tried it. When 22H2 wouldn't do an
update I just tried 20H2. I've tried 22H2 mounting the ISO and
booting from a rufused stick. The hardware doesn't seem to
be an issue. It just says it will only do a fresh install because
"Windows might be installed to the wrong location or I might
be trying to install an older OS."

   I'm guessing that the problem is only that it recognizes a former
Win7 install and the free upgrade days for 22H2 are over. I'd
thought that it might update from 20H2, but of course it's still
a Win7 computer.

   So that got me to wondering whether there was really any
advantage, aside from security patches, in getting a later
version. I assume that 20H2 will support the same software as
22H2. I've never seen specs saying anything like "Requires
Windows 10 22H2 or Windows 11".

> The OS is a rolling release, with random changes.
> What ever gave you the idea it actually stood still :-)
> The kernel is constantly being patched. And based
> on feedback from VirtualBox devs, even kernel calls
> have had the number of parameters in a call changed,
> as an example of what they've had to deal with.
> 
> Even if you look in WinSxS and you find four different
> versions of a library, is it safe to assume the API is
> the same on all of them ? Knowing how developers think,
> the answer to that is "No". The last time I had people
> who cared about compatibility, it was on SunOS 4.1.3U1 .
> 

   You're talking about basic Win32 API calls to kernel32?
I've never seen them break any published API that I can
remember. I know that they go out of their way to break
unpublished functionality. (Spite?) But not published. That's
going back to 1995. If they broke them then old software
wouldn't run and corporate customers would be very angry
when their in-house-developed database programs broke.

> One of the reasons we have version control systems,
> is to let fools move fast and break things. The version control,
> the dependency analysis, is the "cleanup in aisle three".
> Just how Windows Defender interacts with a system, has
> to take into account discovered exploits. And some things
> have to be changed out of necessity (CVE at the 10 level).
> 

    Funny side note: I was looking at the Windows Defender
settings yesterday. It listed dozens of identified malware
files. I looked at what it wanted to get rid of. It turns out
it had scanned all partitions and flagged things like my own
VBScripts for editing the HOSTS file.

>           At the moment, I don't see a reason you could not
>           get to 21H2.
> 
>           You should keep a series of DVDs, when approaching
>           end of life for an OS. If you notice some funny
>           "slowing down" behavior, then use an older version
>           of the OS to get a bit of performance back again.
>           I'm not proposing installing a copy of 9928, but I
>           bet it runs faster :-)
> 

   I'm dual booting 20H2 and the original Win7. It's from 2010,
but it was a jazzed up box at the time and hasn't been used
much. I have disk images for both installs. I'm mainly only
using it to stream Netflix and old movies downloaded from
archive.org. (Last week was Desire, with Gary Cooper and
Marlene Dietrich. :) The Win10 update was with Netflix in mind,
in case they stop supporting FF115. I don't need it to run
like a work computer. Just streaming and a bit of going online
with a browser. So 20H2 is probably fine. On the other hand, it's
cold and snowy here, so it's a good day to try 21H2.

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#182146

On 09/02/2025 13:25, Newyana2 wrote:

> I've tried 22H2 mounting the ISO and
> booting from a rufused stick. 

To upgrade any Windows 10 or Windows 11, you always run "setup.exe".

If you boot from a flash drive then your only option is clean install of 
the operating System.

Mounting ISO allows you to run Setup.exe so I don't understand what do 
you mean by booting from rufused stick. Did you create a bootable flash 
drive using the tool called Rufus? If so then there must be a Setup.exe 
file at the root of the flash drive.

> I'd
> thought that it might update from 20H2, but of course it's still
> a Win7 computer. 

If 20H2 was installed and activated then there is no need to talk about 
Win7. The license has become a digital one and so the Microsoft servers 
will recognise your machine if you use the same machine as 20H2. It 
looks like you are upgrading the wrong way. Just run setup.exe file and 
follow the instructions on the screen. Pay particular attention to keep 
all Apps and personal data but don't download updates when doing this. 
Updates can slow things down and people get frustrated if the HDD is 
slow. SSD or M.2 drives are pretty fast for most people. I buy Orico 
brand because their products are quite reasonable and Amazon sometimes 
gives you up to 20% discount but you have to pay attention to the small 
print on Amazon website.

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#182148

On 2/9/2025 11:51 AM, MR wrote:

> If you boot from a flash drive then your only option is clean install of
> the operating System.
> 
> Mounting ISO allows you to run Setup.exe so I don't understand what do
> you mean by booting from rufused stick. Did you create a bootable flash
> drive using the tool called Rufus? If so then there must be a Setup.exe
> file at the root of the flash drive.
> 
    As I mentioned in the first post, I trien mounting the ISO
and running setup.exe. That didn't work, so I tried a USB stick
for good measure. It refused to do anything but a clean install
in both cases, so I suspect the 22H2 installer is refusing an
update because the systenm was originally Win7.

> If 20H2 was installed and activated then there is no need to talk about
> Win7. The license has become a digital one and so the Microsoft servers
> will recognise your machine if you use the same machine as 20H2.

   Apparently that's not the case. I've done this before, running
setup.exe from a mounted ISO, so I know how to do it. But this time
it doesn't give me the option of saving files. Only clean install.
That would likely mean needing a new license.

    At any rate, I'm not uncertain about that part. I'm just curious
about what substantial difference there is between 20H2 and 22H2.

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#182152

On Sun, 2/9/2025 1:36 PM, Newyana2 wrote:
> On 2/9/2025 11:51 AM, MR wrote:
> 
>> If you boot from a flash drive then your only option is clean install of
>> the operating System.
>>
>> Mounting ISO allows you to run Setup.exe so I don't understand what do
>> you mean by booting from rufused stick. Did you create a bootable flash
>> drive using the tool called Rufus? If so then there must be a Setup.exe
>> file at the root of the flash drive.
>>
>    As I mentioned in the first post, I trien mounting the ISO
> and running setup.exe. That didn't work, so I tried a USB stick
> for good measure. It refused to do anything but a clean install
> in both cases, so I suspect the 22H2 installer is refusing an
> update because the systenm was originally Win7.
> 
>> If 20H2 was installed and activated then there is no need to talk about
>> Win7. The license has become a digital one and so the Microsoft servers
>> will recognise your machine if you use the same machine as 20H2.
> 
>   Apparently that's not the case. I've done this before, running
> setup.exe from a mounted ISO, so I know how to do it. But this time
> it doesn't give me the option of saving files. Only clean install.
> That would likely mean needing a new license.
> 
>    At any rate, I'm not uncertain about that part. I'm just curious
> about what substantial difference there is between 20H2 and 22H2.

I would start looking for logfiles, and try and figure out
why it is doing that.

Remember that the Windows directory changes to Windows.old
and a new Windows directory is created. So at some level,
the Windows 7 aspect should be "flushed" out of the system.

If you try and take the Win10 version *backwards*, it will likely
respond by requesting a "Clean Install". I don't think it
necessarily has migration logic for going backwards. But it
really should be able to handle it. It's just untested.

If the version of the offered media (ISO or USB "setup.exe")
is the same version as currently installed, or a higher
version, then it should accept a "preserve files and programs"
option for that install.

My guess is the "backwards version move" is what is
upsetting it. But otherwise, start looking for .log files .

   Paul

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#182153

On 2/9/2025 3:23 PM, Paul wrote:
> On Sun, 2/9/2025 1:36 PM, Newyana2 wrote:
>> On 2/9/2025 11:51 AM, MR wrote:
>>
>>> If you boot from a flash drive then your only option is clean install of
>>> the operating System.
>>>
>>> Mounting ISO allows you to run Setup.exe so I don't understand what do
>>> you mean by booting from rufused stick. Did you create a bootable flash
>>> drive using the tool called Rufus? If so then there must be a Setup.exe
>>> file at the root of the flash drive.
>>>
>>     As I mentioned in the first post, I trien mounting the ISO
>> and running setup.exe. That didn't work, so I tried a USB stick
>> for good measure. It refused to do anything but a clean install
>> in both cases, so I suspect the 22H2 installer is refusing an
>> update because the systenm was originally Win7.
>>
>>> If 20H2 was installed and activated then there is no need to talk about
>>> Win7. The license has become a digital one and so the Microsoft servers
>>> will recognise your machine if you use the same machine as 20H2.
>>
>>    Apparently that's not the case. I've done this before, running
>> setup.exe from a mounted ISO, so I know how to do it. But this time
>> it doesn't give me the option of saving files. Only clean install.
>> That would likely mean needing a new license.
>>
>>     At any rate, I'm not uncertain about that part. I'm just curious
>> about what substantial difference there is between 20H2 and 22H2.
> 
> I would start looking for logfiles, and try and figure out
> why it is doing that.
> 
> Remember that the Windows directory changes to Windows.old
> and a new Windows directory is created. So at some level,
> the Windows 7 aspect should be "flushed" out of the system.
> 
> If you try and take the Win10 version *backwards*, it will likely
> respond by requesting a "Clean Install". I don't think it
> necessarily has migration logic for going backwards. But it
> really should be able to handle it. It's just untested.
> 
> If the version of the offered media (ISO or USB "setup.exe")
> is the same version as currently installed, or a higher
> version, then it should accept a "preserve files and programs"
> option for that install.
> 
> My guess is the "backwards version move" is what is
> upsetting it. But otherwise, start looking for .log files .

I'm not doing a backward move. I tried to go from 20H2 to 22H2.

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#182154

Newyana2 wrote on 2/9/25 6:25 AM:
> 
>   21H2 might work. I haven't tried it. When 22H2 wouldn't do an
> update I just tried 20H2. I've tried 22H2 mounting the ISO and
> booting from a rufused stick. The hardware doesn't seem to
> be an issue. It just says it will only do a fresh install because
> "Windows might be installed to the wrong location or I might
> be trying to install an older OS."

> 
Normally 20H2 to 22H2 does not require a clean install.
  - no significant hardware system requirements between the versions
Conditions that might cause it:
- Windows system image needs repair (DISM command line option)
- Windows component store needs cleanup (DISM command line option)
- Windows Update broken/corrupt
- Windows Update engine out-of-date
   => May 2023 KB5026361 last release 20H2 update is required(LCU and 
SSU)to update to 21H2/22H2
- Windows 20H2 does not have June 2023 KB5027389 stand-alone(not included 
with monthly LCU/SSU update) Windows 10 Compatibility Update(includes the 
Windows Recovery Update)and is deployed/installed separate update via 
Windows Update or the MSFT Catalog. Note June 2023 was also the first 
monthly update(LCU, SSU, SafeOS) that included the WinRE update for Win10 
21H2 and 22H2
- Device using Legacy MBR and not GPT(more common on older devices) where 
System partition is on the o/s partition
- Device using GPT with no Recovery partition, or deleted Recovery 
partition, Windows partition not resizeable/shrink to free space to 
create WinRe partition, WinRE partition, if present, insufficient free space.
- lesser issues(Graphics driver, Network driver outdated, stand-alone 
graphic card no longer supported or outdated driver); device has both 
onboard graphics and add-on graphics card with add-on enabled/onboard 
disabled[in some cases, BIOS/UEFI disabling the add-on and enabling the 
onboard will allow the 22H2 to be successfully installed]; 3rd party 
utilities that modify Windows; 3rd party AV/AM; end-user 
tweaking/removing main Windows integrated programs(Edge, Defender)
- Windows Photos(rare case but a known issue) app package removed or 
uninstalled.

Other routes to update
  - instead of using Windows Update or UBS media or ISO to update, use 
the  the Win10 22H2 Update Assistant(download the exe from the Windows 10 
Software Download site - 'Update Now' option.'
  - download exe file is 'Windows10Upgrade9252.exe
  => may be necessary to check the exe file's properties and unblock the 
exe and/or run the exe as admin


-- 
...w¡ñ§±¤ñ

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#182156

On 2/9/2025 4:35 PM, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
> Newyana2 wrote on 2/9/25 6:25 AM:
>>
>>   21H2 might work. I haven't tried it. When 22H2 wouldn't do an
>> update I just tried 20H2. I've tried 22H2 mounting the ISO and
>> booting from a rufused stick. The hardware doesn't seem to
>> be an issue. It just says it will only do a fresh install because
>> "Windows might be installed to the wrong location or I might
>> be trying to install an older OS."
> 
>>
> Normally 20H2 to 22H2 does not require a clean install.
>   - no significant hardware system requirements between the versions
> Conditions that might cause it:
> - Windows system image needs repair (DISM command line option)
> - Windows component store needs cleanup (DISM command line option)
> - Windows Update broken/corrupt
> - Windows Update engine out-of-date
>    => May 2023 KB5026361 last release 20H2 update is required(LCU and 
> SSU)to update to 21H2/22H2
> - Windows 20H2 does not have June 2023 KB5027389 stand-alone(not 
> included with monthly LCU/SSU update) Windows 10 Compatibility 
> Update(includes the Windows Recovery Update)and is deployed/installed 
> separate update via Windows Update or the MSFT Catalog. Note June 2023 
> was also the first monthly update(LCU, SSU, SafeOS) that included the 
> WinRE update for Win10 21H2 and 22H2
> - Device using Legacy MBR and not GPT(more common on older devices) 
> where System partition is on the o/s partition
> - Device using GPT with no Recovery partition, or deleted Recovery 
> partition, Windows partition not resizeable/shrink to free space to 
> create WinRe partition, WinRE partition, if present, insufficient free 
> space.
> - lesser issues(Graphics driver, Network driver outdated, stand-alone 
> graphic card no longer supported or outdated driver); device has both 
> onboard graphics and add-on graphics card with add-on enabled/onboard 
> disabled[in some cases, BIOS/UEFI disabling the add-on and enabling the 
> onboard will allow the 22H2 to be successfully installed]; 3rd party 
> utilities that modify Windows; 3rd party AV/AM; end-user 
> tweaking/removing main Windows integrated programs(Edge, Defender)
> - Windows Photos(rare case but a known issue) app package removed or 
> uninstalled.
> 
> Other routes to update
>   - instead of using Windows Update or UBS media or ISO to update, use 
> the  the Win10 22H2 Update Assistant(download the exe from the Windows 
> 10 Software Download site - 'Update Now' option.'
>   - download exe file is 'Windows10Upgrade9252.exe
>   => may be necessary to check the exe file's properties and unblock the 
> exe and/or run the exe as admin
> 

    Complicated. I tried the 20H2 ISO out of curiosity (what's already
on there) and that also refused to do an update. The update from
7 to 20H2 was smooth, though at the time, 22H2 refused to do
anything but a clean install.

    I noticed that the system window pops up and then closes. So
something is not right. I ran SFC and DISM repairs. Still no luck
with the system window. It is using MBR. Though 22H2 doesn't seem
to be complaining about installing -- only refusing to update
rather than clean install.

    This computer also does have a graphics card added to
the onboard because the original predates HDMI and I needed
to be able to display on the monitor as well as running HDMI
to a TV. That graphics card is barebones. Something like a $35
NVidia, I think. (I don't play video games. Only pipe movies.)

    The complication here is that I don't have a problem with a clean
install but I expect it would lose the license, since Win7 -> 10 is no
longer a free update.

   It sounds like it's probably not worth trying to do much more.
Setup is not telling me what the issue is. And all the hardware issues
don't explain why even 20H2 refuses to install on top of itself. But
if I get bored I might re-run a Win7-> 20H2 update, then try 22H2
immediately, before tweaking 20H2.

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#182159

Newyana2 wrote on 2/9/25 3:39 PM:
> On 2/9/2025 4:35 PM, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
>> Newyana2 wrote on 2/9/25 6:25 AM:
>>>
>>>   21H2 might work. I haven't tried it. When 22H2 wouldn't do an
>>> update I just tried 20H2. I've tried 22H2 mounting the ISO and
>>> booting from a rufused stick. The hardware doesn't seem to
>>> be an issue. It just says it will only do a fresh install because
>>> "Windows might be installed to the wrong location or I might
>>> be trying to install an older OS."
>>
>>>
>> Normally 20H2 to 22H2 does not require a clean install.
>>   - no significant hardware system requirements between the versions
>> Conditions that might cause it:
>> - Windows system image needs repair (DISM command line option)
>> - Windows component store needs cleanup (DISM command line option)
>> - Windows Update broken/corrupt
>> - Windows Update engine out-of-date
>>    => May 2023 KB5026361 last release 20H2 update is required(LCU and 
>> SSU)to update to 21H2/22H2
>> - Windows 20H2 does not have June 2023 KB5027389 stand-alone(not 
>> included with monthly LCU/SSU update) Windows 10 Compatibility 
>> Update(includes the Windows Recovery Update)and is deployed/installed 
>> separate update via Windows Update or the MSFT Catalog. Note June 2023 
>> was also the first monthly update(LCU, SSU, SafeOS) that included the 
>> WinRE update for Win10 21H2 and 22H2
>> - Device using Legacy MBR and not GPT(more common on older devices) 
>> where System partition is on the o/s partition
>> - Device using GPT with no Recovery partition, or deleted Recovery 
>> partition, Windows partition not resizeable/shrink to free space to 
>> create WinRe partition, WinRE partition, if present, insufficient free 
>> space.
>> - lesser issues(Graphics driver, Network driver outdated, stand-alone 
>> graphic card no longer supported or outdated driver); device has both 
>> onboard graphics and add-on graphics card with add-on enabled/onboard 
>> disabled[in some cases, BIOS/UEFI disabling the add-on and enabling the 
>> onboard will allow the 22H2 to be successfully installed]; 3rd party 
>> utilities that modify Windows; 3rd party AV/AM; end-user 
>> tweaking/removing main Windows integrated programs(Edge, Defender)
>> - Windows Photos(rare case but a known issue) app package removed or 
>> uninstalled.
>>
>> Other routes to update
>>   - instead of using Windows Update or UBS media or ISO to update, use 
>> the  the Win10 22H2 Update Assistant(download the exe from the Windows 
>> 10 Software Download site - 'Update Now' option.'
>>   - download exe file is 'Windows10Upgrade9252.exe
>>   => may be necessary to check the exe file's properties and unblock 
>> the exe and/or run the exe as admin
>>
> 
>     Complicated. I tried the 20H2 ISO out of curiosity (what's already
> on there) and that also refused to do an update. The update from
> 7 to 20H2 was smooth, though at the time, 22H2 refused to do
> anything but a clean install.
> 
>     I noticed that the system window pops up and then closes. So
> something is not right. I ran SFC and DISM repairs. Still no luck
> with the system window. It is using MBR. Though 22H2 doesn't seem
> to be complaining about installing -- only refusing to update
> rather than clean install.
> 
>     This computer also does have a graphics card added to
> the onboard because the original predates HDMI and I needed
> to be able to display on the monitor as well as running HDMI
> to a TV. That graphics card is barebones. Something like a $35
> NVidia, I think. (I don't play video games. Only pipe movies.)
> 
>     The complication here is that I don't have a problem with a clean
> install but I expect it would lose the license, since Win7 -> 10 is no
> longer a free update.
> 
>    It sounds like it's probably not worth trying to do much more.
> Setup is not telling me what the issue is. And all the hardware issues
> don't explain why even 20H2 refuses to install on top of itself. But
> if I get bored I might re-run a Win7-> 20H2 update, then try 22H2
> immediately, before tweaking 20H2.
> 
> 
> 
Your symptom/issue is obviously not the first failure of 20H2 to 22H2 on 
a device(including those originally with Win7).
  - Those 'knowns' that I provided are almost everything I recall or have 
seen in my earlier 13 yrs in the MVP program, current MSFT listservers, 
AskWoody owner/admin/moderator patch lady(Susan B. - if she doesn't know 
about it, it didn't happen), and other sources.

If you have verified:
1. the DISM Image and Component store routes show no corruption, no 
repair need, no component store cleanup
2. your 20H2 version is later than May 2023(the last released 20H2 update 
was 19042.2965)Update Assistant route
3. your device has the June 2023 KB5027389 stand-alone(Compatibility 
update installed. (Fyi..the KB can be downloaded from the Catalog, if 
installed and already present, it will tell you not applicable or already 
installed)

If the above are all ok, then try using the available online Update Now 
option to download and run the Upgrade Assistant - Windows10Upgrade9252.exe

-- 
...w¡ñ§±¤ñ

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#182160

On 2/9/2025 6:25 PM, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
> Newyana2 wrote on 2/9/25 3:39 PM:
>> On 2/9/2025 4:35 PM, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
>>> Newyana2 wrote on 2/9/25 6:25 AM:
>>>>
>>>>   21H2 might work. I haven't tried it. When 22H2 wouldn't do an
>>>> update I just tried 20H2. I've tried 22H2 mounting the ISO and
>>>> booting from a rufused stick. The hardware doesn't seem to
>>>> be an issue. It just says it will only do a fresh install because
>>>> "Windows might be installed to the wrong location or I might
>>>> be trying to install an older OS."
>>>
>>>>
>>> Normally 20H2 to 22H2 does not require a clean install.
>>>   - no significant hardware system requirements between the versions
>>> Conditions that might cause it:
>>> - Windows system image needs repair (DISM command line option)
>>> - Windows component store needs cleanup (DISM command line option)
>>> - Windows Update broken/corrupt
>>> - Windows Update engine out-of-date
>>>    => May 2023 KB5026361 last release 20H2 update is required(LCU and 
>>> SSU)to update to 21H2/22H2
>>> - Windows 20H2 does not have June 2023 KB5027389 stand-alone(not 
>>> included with monthly LCU/SSU update) Windows 10 Compatibility 
>>> Update(includes the Windows Recovery Update)and is deployed/installed 
>>> separate update via Windows Update or the MSFT Catalog. Note June 
>>> 2023 was also the first monthly update(LCU, SSU, SafeOS) that 
>>> included the WinRE update for Win10 21H2 and 22H2
>>> - Device using Legacy MBR and not GPT(more common on older devices) 
>>> where System partition is on the o/s partition
>>> - Device using GPT with no Recovery partition, or deleted Recovery 
>>> partition, Windows partition not resizeable/shrink to free space to 
>>> create WinRe partition, WinRE partition, if present, insufficient 
>>> free space.
>>> - lesser issues(Graphics driver, Network driver outdated, stand-alone 
>>> graphic card no longer supported or outdated driver); device has both 
>>> onboard graphics and add-on graphics card with add-on enabled/onboard 
>>> disabled[in some cases, BIOS/UEFI disabling the add-on and enabling 
>>> the onboard will allow the 22H2 to be successfully installed]; 3rd 
>>> party utilities that modify Windows; 3rd party AV/AM; end-user 
>>> tweaking/removing main Windows integrated programs(Edge, Defender)
>>> - Windows Photos(rare case but a known issue) app package removed or 
>>> uninstalled.
>>>
>>> Other routes to update
>>>   - instead of using Windows Update or UBS media or ISO to update, 
>>> use the  the Win10 22H2 Update Assistant(download the exe from the 
>>> Windows 10 Software Download site - 'Update Now' option.'
>>>   - download exe file is 'Windows10Upgrade9252.exe
>>>   => may be necessary to check the exe file's properties and unblock 
>>> the exe and/or run the exe as admin
>>>
>>
>>     Complicated. I tried the 20H2 ISO out of curiosity (what's already
>> on there) and that also refused to do an update. The update from
>> 7 to 20H2 was smooth, though at the time, 22H2 refused to do
>> anything but a clean install.
>>
>>     I noticed that the system window pops up and then closes. So
>> something is not right. I ran SFC and DISM repairs. Still no luck
>> with the system window. It is using MBR. Though 22H2 doesn't seem
>> to be complaining about installing -- only refusing to update
>> rather than clean install.
>>
>>     This computer also does have a graphics card added to
>> the onboard because the original predates HDMI and I needed
>> to be able to display on the monitor as well as running HDMI
>> to a TV. That graphics card is barebones. Something like a $35
>> NVidia, I think. (I don't play video games. Only pipe movies.)
>>
>>     The complication here is that I don't have a problem with a clean
>> install but I expect it would lose the license, since Win7 -> 10 is no
>> longer a free update.
>>
>>    It sounds like it's probably not worth trying to do much more.
>> Setup is not telling me what the issue is. And all the hardware issues
>> don't explain why even 20H2 refuses to install on top of itself. But
>> if I get bored I might re-run a Win7-> 20H2 update, then try 22H2
>> immediately, before tweaking 20H2.
>>
>>
>>
> Your symptom/issue is obviously not the first failure of 20H2 to 22H2 on 
> a device(including those originally with Win7).
>   - Those 'knowns' that I provided are almost everything I recall or 
> have seen in my earlier 13 yrs in the MVP program, current MSFT 
> listservers, AskWoody owner/admin/moderator patch lady(Susan B. - if she 
> doesn't know about it, it didn't happen), and other sources.
> 
> If you have verified:
> 1. the DISM Image and Component store routes show no corruption, no 
> repair need, no component store cleanup
> 2. your 20H2 version is later than May 2023(the last released 20H2 
> update was 19042.2965)Update Assistant route
> 3. your device has the June 2023 KB5027389 stand-alone(Compatibility 
> update installed. (Fyi..the KB can be downloaded from the Catalog, if 
> installed and already present, it will tell you not applicable or 
> already installed)
> 
> If the above are all ok, then try using the available online Update Now 
> option to download and run the Upgrade Assistant - Windows10Upgrade9252.exe
> 
     Thanks, but that's way more trouble than this is worth.

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#182163

On Sun, 2/9/2025 7:43 PM, Newyana2 wrote:

>>
>     Thanks, but that's way more trouble than this is worth.
> 

Once you are granted a license, the license is valid "invisibly"
to you, as long as a hash of the machine details does not change.
It's roughly the same hash as WinXP, and places a lot of weight on
the NIC MAC address, the CPU type, the memory amount (both of those
to a lesser degree). If you had a Firewire, that has a MAC too.

Just one transition from W7SP1 to W10, within the window where
the offer was still valid, is sufficient. You likely DO have a license,
and no backing out of that, unless you swap out the mobo, then,
it is a different machine.

If the Microsoft servers sees just one transition from W10 to RufusW11,
that should grant you a W11 license in a sense. Then, if you added
a TPM, the BIOS supported attestation, your processor magically had
a better MBEC, and so on (you had a POPCNT, which is a pretty low bar),
then when you install W11 the second time and without Rufus, you
would be licensed to Windows 11 (just as the first transition had set up
for you). But the odds of not breaking the hash on such a transition
are so low, I can't recommend trying to do that.

All it takes for an upgrade license, is to do it (W7Sp1 to W10), wait a day,
then check it. Like, check for your license, after the OS has installed
the video card driver automatically, it should be licensed by then. That
allows time for the license server to have been restarted, or the fire
to be put out in the data center :-)

   slmgr /dlv

and one of the lines in there is your license status.

Various entries in the "winver", do not mean quite as much as they imply.
For example, I'm on the Insider, but that alone does not
grant a license. The Winver claims the OS is licensed to BullWinkle,
but, not really. The OS expires in fall 2025 or so  (unless updated
before then). There are several streams of Insider, and I've made
no attempt to keep all of them going. I'm down to one install now.

   Paul

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#182164

On Mon, 2/10/2025 12:45 AM, Paul wrote:
> On Sun, 2/9/2025 7:43 PM, Newyana2 wrote:
> 
>>>
>>     Thanks, but that's way more trouble than this is worth.
>>

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/deployment/upgrade/log-files

setupact.log 	Down-Level [your current OS]  C:\$Windows.~BT\Sources\Panther\setupact.log

Maybe your WindowsUpdate is jammed or a key service
required for WindowUpdate is removed. The OS can't function
without the supports for Windows Side By Side to handle
packages. Since your attempt failed so quickly, that's my guess
at a root cause. A services malady.

The OS installation has multiple phases, and once Windows.old and Windows
exist, then the logfiles (whatever they are), will be in the new Windows folder.

And what is neat, is while there are two places for logs to go, the *date stamps*
on the logs use a different time base. One might use local time, the other UTC
or whatever. Behaviors like this don't help matters.

*******

While SetupDiag is mentioned here, I don't think it worked when I tried it.
But it is still worth reviewing the article.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-upgrade-failed-use-these-5-tools-to-find-the-problem-and-fix-it-fast/

You can get a copy here. I knew it was out here, because my copy was
in my Downloads folder :-) Mine is version 1.7.0.0 and a bit older.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/deployment/upgrade/setupdiag

   Paul

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#182168

On 2/10/2025 2:30 AM, Paul wrote:
> On Mon, 2/10/2025 12:45 AM, Paul wrote:
>> On Sun, 2/9/2025 7:43 PM, Newyana2 wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>      Thanks, but that's way more trouble than this is worth.
>>>
> 
> https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/deployment/upgrade/log-files
> 
> setupact.log 	Down-Level [your current OS]  C:\$Windows.~BT\Sources\Panther\setupact.log
> 
> Maybe your WindowsUpdate is jammed or a key service
> required for WindowUpdate is removed. The OS can't function
> without the supports for Windows Side By Side to handle
> packages. Since your attempt failed so quickly, that's my guess
> at a root cause. A services malady.
> 

   Maybe. This all started with curiosity about what the actual
notable differences were between versions. As usual, I'm curious
to sort out the garbage heap of complications, but I'm not really
THAT curious. I don't want to waste 2 days fiddling with it to get
something I don't actually need. And if I let it clean install then I
likely won't have a license, because the update from Win7 is no
longer free.

   Why I should need WU enabled for an offline update is a mystery
to me. But I have noticed that things seem to go south with any
sort of tweaking. I have a firewall blocking MS surveillance. I have
WU blocked. I have Classic Shell installed... Those are just the basic
things I do to clean up Win10 when setting it up. And I only
run these things after unplugging the ethernet. Naturally I don't
expect an update patch to work with WU disabled. But a total
system update? It worked fine going from a tweaked and locked
down Win7 to 20H2.

   Anyway, thanks for the help. And thanks to Winston, but this
box is mostly only for streaming Netflix. It's 15 years old. It's
not worth sleuthing all the variables in terms of why Windows
updates have become so undependable.

   Given all the problems that I've had, and that I've seen reported
by others (even people on Win10/11 whose activation suddenly
goes missing with no hardware changes), I've adopted a specific
protocol: Install new. Allow MS to have their way with the system,
putting in the latest updates. If it still works then buy a license.
If that goes OK then lock it down, shut out MS, install Simplewall,
and start tweaking. From there I no longer consider installing
patches. It's all just too brittle for that. The old method of simply
running critical updates on XP and 7 is no longer applicable. My guess
is that that's because MS now expects control. They're not content
to just swap out a vulnerable system file anymore. They're treating
it as their service kiosk which needs to be operating per their specs.

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