Re: Recent history of vi

From	"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>
Newsgroups	comp.os.linux.misc, alt.folklore.computers
Subject	Re: Recent history of vi
Date	2025-12-11 19:38 +0100
Message-ID	<mlfr0mxi85.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> (permalink)
References	(11 earlier) <slrn10jbtsk.1c8f5.als@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <10h61qm$dbs$3@dont-email.me> <slrn10jds2o.1nl6b.als@frodo.angband.thangorodrim.de> <p57o0mxoob.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> <slrn10jjrn8.29mh4.als@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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On 2025-12-10 23:06, Alexander Schreiber wrote:
> Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2025-12-08 16:35, Alexander Schreiber wrote:
>>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 07/12/2025 21:54, Alexander Schreiber wrote:
>>>>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>> On 07/12/2025 19:12, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>>>> rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 7 Dec 2025 16:31:23 +0100, Alexander Schreiber wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Semi-apropos I was reading an essay by Herbert Spencer last night. He
>>>>>>>> questioned the British educational system that taught Greek and Latin
>>>>>>>> because that's what 'educated' people learned even though they had limited
>>>>>>>> utility in later life.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Latin is useful for several reasons; it helps make sense of english, for starters,
>>>>>>> and it certainly helps when subsequently learning latin-derived (Romance) languages.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The point about Latin and Greek is that all science mathematics,
>>>>>> philosophy and the bible used to be written in it because it was that
>>>>>> language of an educated  European.
>>>>>
>>>>> The bible was not written in Latin because that was the language of an
>>>>> educated European, it was written in Latin because that was the language
>>>>> the clergy (from the lowest monk to the pope) learned and spoke
>>>>
>>>> i.e the language of the educated European...
>>>
>>> Well, there was a famous book about early artillery and black powder
>>> when those technologies were somewhat newish in Europe and which contained
>>> texts from many sources. The author only bothered to translate the arabic
>>> and chinese sources, because a properly educated officer would of course
>>> be able to read german, english, french, spanish, italian, greek, latin
>>> and english (and I probably forgot one or two languages in the list).
>>
>> Wow.
> 
> You have to keep in mind that said "properly educated officer" at that
> time was a noble, usually from a family both financially well off and
> well connected (which, back then, needed way more language skills than
> today) so they didn't have to engage in such lowly behaviour as working
> for living. They also tended to have access to competent tutors providing
> often 1:1 education from an early age and a certain broadness of language
> skills was expected to be functional at the various noble/royal courts.

Still, that's more of an scholar than a person swimming in luxury.

> 
>>>>>    and it
>>>>> conventiently was a language that most of the people didn't speak, so
>>>>> they needed the clergy as "interpreters". One of the reasons why the
>>>>> Church was so much after Martin Luther, because he enabled the common
>>>>> people (yes, reading was still a limited distribution skill, but reading
>>>>> the native language was far, far more common than understanding Latin)
>>>>> to read "the word of God" themselves. Rather inconvient for the clergy
>>>>> trying to remain gatekeepers ...
>>>>>
>>>> Bit like the EU today isn't it?
>>>
>>> Not at all. Official EU documents are translated into all the official
>>> languages of the EU nations by qualified translators so that the legal
>>> intent remains preserved. One of the reasons why machine translations
>>> between EU languages are so good is that this corpus serves as really
>>> good training material for those systems.
>>
>> What machine translator are they using?
> 
> The EU uses human translators, presumably backed by appropriate domain
> experts (having two legally binding but disagreeing versions of the same
> document obviously won't do). Various companies then used that (public)
> document corpus to build/train their machine translators.

I am only aware of DeepL.

> 
> Kind regards,
>             Alex.


-- 
Cheers, Carlos.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;

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Re: Recent history of vi Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-12-05 20:52 +0000
  Re: Recent history of vi Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2025-12-05 15:57 -0700
    Re: Recent history of vi candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2025-12-08 18:40 +0000
      Re: Recent history of vi Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-12-13 11:42 +0000
    Re: Recent history of vi Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-12-13 11:40 +0000
      Re: Recent history of vi "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2025-12-13 15:58 +0000
  Re: Recent history of vi The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-06 12:22 +0000
    Re: Recent history of vi rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-06 19:51 +0000
      Re: Recent history of vi Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2025-12-06 15:13 -0700
        Re: polyglot programming, Recent history of vi John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2025-12-06 22:28 +0000
          Re: polyglot programming, Recent history of vi rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-07 01:39 +0000
            Re: polyglot programming, Recent history of vi Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-12-07 06:19 +0000
              Re: polyglot programming, Recent history of vi Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-12-06 22:50 -0800
                Re: polyglot programming, Recent history of vi "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2025-12-07 10:52 +0000
              Re: polyglot programming, Recent history of vi rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-07 18:34 +0000
              Re: polyglot programming, Recent history of vi Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-16 00:02 +0000
                Re: polyglot programming, Recent history of vi rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-16 01:41 +0000
                Re: polyglot programming, Recent history of vi Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2025-12-16 07:39 -0700
                Re: polyglot programming, Recent history of vi The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-16 15:57 +0000
          Re: polyglot programming, Recent history of vi Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-12-07 16:58 +0000
            Re: polyglot programming, Recent history of vi Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-16 00:00 +0000
        Re: Recent history of vi Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-12-07 00:35 +0000
          Re: Recent history of vi "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-12-07 19:48 +0100
        Re: Recent history of vi Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2025-12-07 00:38 +0000
      Re: Recent history of vi Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-07 01:31 +0000
      Re: Recent history of vi The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-07 11:18 +0000
        Re: Recent history of vi rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-07 18:52 +0000
          Re: more polyglot programming, was Recent history of vi John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2025-12-07 19:39 +0000
            Re: more polyglot programming, was Recent history of vi ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2025-12-07 19:44 +0000
              Re: more polyglot programming, was Recent history of vi The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-07 20:27 +0000
              Re: more polyglot programming, was Recent history of vi rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-08 01:46 +0000
                Re: more polyglot programming, was Recent history of vi Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-12-08 05:53 +0000
                Re: more polyglot programming, was Recent history of vi Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-12-07 22:25 -0800
                Re: more polyglot programming, was Recent history of vi rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-08 08:34 +0000
                Re: more polyglot programming, was Recent history of vi The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-08 08:48 +0000
                Re: more polyglot programming, was Recent history of vi rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-08 23:43 +0000
              Re: more polyglot programming, was Recent history of vi Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-15 23:56 +0000
            Re: more polyglot programming, was Recent history of vi Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2025-12-07 14:31 -0700
    Re: Recent history of vi Alexander Schreiber <als@usenet.thangorodrim.de> - 2025-12-07 16:31 +0100
      Re: Recent history of vi rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-07 18:49 +0000
        Re: Recent history of vi scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-12-07 19:12 +0000
          Re: Recent history of vi rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-07 19:44 +0000
            Re: Recent history of vi Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-12-07 12:14 -0800
            Re: Recent history of vi The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-07 20:26 +0000
              Re: Recent history of vi rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-08 03:05 +0000
                Re: Recent history of vi The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-08 08:46 +0000
                Re: Recent history of vi Alexander Schreiber <als@usenet.thangorodrim.de> - 2025-12-08 16:39 +0100
                Re: Recent history of vi Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2025-12-08 16:07 -0500
                Re: Recent history of vi "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-12-10 13:15 +0100
                Re: Recent history of vi The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-10 13:43 +0000
                Re: Recent history of vi rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-11 02:54 +0000
                Re: Recent history of vi The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-11 08:55 +0000
                Re: Recent history of vi Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-15 00:41 +0000
            Re: Recent history of vi Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2025-12-07 14:30 -0700
              Re: Recent history of vi rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-08 03:12 +0000
          Re: Recent history of vi Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-12-07 11:52 -0800
          Re: Recent history of vi The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-07 20:23 +0000
            Re: Recent history of vi Alexander Schreiber <als@usenet.thangorodrim.de> - 2025-12-07 22:54 +0100
              Re: Recent history of vi Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-12-07 14:25 -0800
                Re: Recent history of vi The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-08 08:25 +0000
                Re: Recent history of vi Alexander Schreiber <als@usenet.thangorodrim.de> - 2025-12-08 16:26 +0100
                Re: Recent history of vi Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2025-12-08 12:15 -0700
                Re: Recent history of vi Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2025-12-08 16:13 -0500
                Re: Recent history of vi "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-12-10 13:19 +0100
                Re: Recent history of vi rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-09 00:08 +0000
                Re: Recent history of vi rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-08 23:58 +0000
              Greek origins of Christian scriptures [was Re: Recent history of vi] Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2025-12-07 18:17 -0500
              Re: Recent history of vi Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-12-08 01:35 +0000
                Re: Recent history of vi The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-08 08:34 +0000
                Re: Recent history of vi "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-12-08 14:23 +0100
                Re: Recent history of vi rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-09 01:10 +0000
                Re: Recent history of vi Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> - 2025-12-09 04:25 +0000
                Re: Recent history of vi ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2025-12-09 04:47 +0000
                Re: Recent history of vi "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-12-10 15:16 +0100
                Re: Recent history of vi The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-10 16:59 +0000
                Re: Recent history of vi rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-11 02:55 +0000
                Re: Recent history of vi Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-12-10 19:34 -0800
                Re: Recent history of vi drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) - 2025-12-12 16:13 +0000
                Re: Recent history of vi "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2025-12-13 15:51 +0000
                Re: Recent history of vi Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-12-14 04:57 +0000
                Re: Recent history of vi Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-12-13 21:21 -0800
              Re: Recent history of vi rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-08 02:38 +0000
              Re: Recent history of vi The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-08 08:21 +0000
                Re: Recent history of vi Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2025-12-08 07:38 -0700
                Re: Recent history of vi Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> - 2025-12-12 06:59 +0000
                Re: Recent history of vi rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-12 07:35 +0000
                Re: Recent history of vi Alexander Schreiber <als@usenet.thangorodrim.de> - 2025-12-08 16:35 +0100
                Re: Recent history of vi "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-12-10 13:54 +0100
                Re: Recent history of vi The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-10 13:41 +0000
                Re: Recent history of vi Alexander Schreiber <als@usenet.thangorodrim.de> - 2025-12-10 23:07 +0100
                Re: Recent history of vi The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-11 08:52 +0000
                Re: Recent history of vi John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2025-12-11 20:54 +0000
                Re: Recent history of vi The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-11 20:57 +0000
                Re: linguistic hegemony, was Recent history of vi John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2025-12-12 02:01 +0000
                Re: linguistic hegemony, was Recent history of vi rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-12 02:27 +0000
                Re: linguistic hegemony, was Recent history of vi "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-12-12 03:28 +0100
                Re: linguistic hegemony, was Recent history of vi Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-12-11 21:43 -0800
                Re: linguistic hegemony, was Recent history of vi rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-12 07:25 +0000
                Re: linguistic hegemony, was Recent history of vi ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2025-12-12 09:35 +0000
                Re: Recent history of vi Alexander Schreiber <als@usenet.thangorodrim.de> - 2025-12-12 09:57 +0100
                EU (was: Re: Recent history of vi "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2025-12-12 09:53 +0000
                Re: EU (was: Re: Recent history of vi Alexander Schreiber <als@usenet.thangorodrim.de> - 2025-12-12 11:51 +0100
                Re: EU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-12 11:54 +0000
                Re: EU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-12 19:26 +0000
                Re: EU Alexander Schreiber <als@usenet.thangorodrim.de> - 2025-12-13 12:01 +0100
                Re: EU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-15 18:34 +0000
                Re: EU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-15 20:59 +0000
                Re: EU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-15 21:34 +0000
                Re: EU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-15 23:24 +0000
                Re: EU Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-12-16 05:54 +0000
                Re: EU Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-12-16 12:47 -0500
                Re: EU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-16 19:57 +0000
                Re: EU Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-12-16 12:42 -0500
                Re: EU scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-12-16 18:14 +0000
                Re: EU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-16 19:55 +0000
                Re: EU scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-12-16 20:05 +0000
                Re: EU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-16 20:30 +0000
                Re: EU Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-12-16 05:54 +0000
                Re: EU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-16 08:06 +0000
                Re: EU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-16 10:33 +0000
                Re: EU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-16 20:02 +0000
                Re: EU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-16 10:30 +0000
                Re: EU Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-12-16 05:54 +0000
                Re: EU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-16 10:25 +0000
                Re: Recent history of vi The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-12 11:53 +0000
                Re: Recent history of vi Alexander Schreiber <als@usenet.thangorodrim.de> - 2025-12-12 20:27 +0100
                Yes,{, Prime} Minister (was: Re: Recent history of vi) Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-12 23:27 +0000
                Re: Recent history of vi "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2025-12-13 15:55 +0000
                Re: Recent history of vi The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-15 18:38 +0000
                Re: Recent history of vi rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-15 22:40 +0000
                Re: Recent history of vi Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-12-15 15:44 -0800
                Re: Recent history of vi rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-16 01:59 +0000
                Re: Recent history of vi The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-16 10:22 +0000
                Re: Recent history of vi The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-16 10:18 +0000
                Re: Recent history of vi rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-16 20:45 +0000
                Re: Recent history of vi The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-16 10:02 +0000
                Re: Recent history of vi rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-16 20:13 +0000
                Re: Recent history of vi Alexander Schreiber <als@usenet.thangorodrim.de> - 2025-12-10 23:06 +0100
                Re: Recent history of vi "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-12-11 19:38 +0100
            Re: Recent history of vi rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-08 02:03 +0000
              Re: Recent history of vi The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-08 08:41 +0000
                Re: Recent history of vi Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> - 2025-12-12 07:09 +0000
                Re: Recent history of vi The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-12 11:49 +0000
      Re: Recent history of vi The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-07 20:14 +0000
        Re: Recent history of vi Alexander Schreiber <als@usenet.thangorodrim.de> - 2025-12-07 22:56 +0100
          Re: Recent history of vi The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-08 08:18 +0000
  Re: Unicode (was Re: Recent history of vi) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-15 00:32 +0000

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