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Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre

From John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com>
Newsgroups comp.os.linux.misc
Subject Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre
Date 2025-08-07 15:56 -0700
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <20250807155622.00003411@gmail.com> (permalink)
References (16 earlier) <106ulcf$35j8e$3@dont-email.me> <20250806090124.00005af4@gmail.com> <10716ac$3ok85$4@dont-email.me> <20250807141447.000028d3@gmail.com> <wwvwm7e230z.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk>

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On Thu, 07 Aug 2025 23:14:04 +0100
Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> As I’ve said before I’m not fully convinced by the Wayland design, but
> when it comes to _saved_ positions in particular, I think that very
> much belongs in the window manager rather than the application, for
> several related reasons.
> 
> Firstly, it’s functionality that basically every application needs;
> making every application handle it explicitly is pointless duplication
> of effort.

In the general case, I'd agree - window managers already handle this on
the regular for the majority of applications, usually present the user
with options for configuring the default placement/sizing strategy, and
that's all well and good.

But it's one thing to provide a default behavior for don't-care cases
and quite another to completely disallow applications from specifying
or even hinting to the WM about relative positioning - which was the
bizarro hardline stance taken by Wayland 'til they hit critical "people
are yelling at us and won't use our stuff" mass.

I don't doubt that there may be better ways to handle this than the way
X11 does it - but looking for a better approach is not the same thing
as writing the whole question off as a You Don't Need That.

> I think there is a legitimate risk here. If a bit of malware that
> looks like your bank’s website (as it would appear in a browser)
> manages to position itself directly over the window that really has
> your bank’s website at the point you’re expecting to enter your
> credentials, you’re going to take a loss.
> 
> That doesn’t require intercepting global input (just input focus), or
> scraping another window (what your bank’s website looks like is public
> knowledge).

As has already been pointed out, though, trying to solve "malware is
being tricksy and evil" by clapping *all* programs in irons is a real
"barricading the barn door and hiding punji traps in the barnyard after
the cows have already gone" mindset. If evil software is running on the
local machine under a valid user's session, the safeguards've *already
failed* - anything with that level of access can snarf the entire $HOME
and beam it right up to the mothership for analysis.

There *is* something to be said about trick pages running in a Web
browser from some unknown source, but these don't even need to pop up a
separate window most of the time - major browsers in their default
configuration will happily open a new tab and switch right over to it
with nary a sign that anything is questionable, and they'll drive users
right to these pages, too, responding to an address being typed in the
URL bar with a list of SEO-baited scam pages that naive users will just
click on rather than finish typing. This is an *atrocious* failure of
security practices - but it's a failure on the part of search engines
and browser developers, *not* the display server/window manager.

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Thread

Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-29 22:14 +0100
  Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-29 22:55 +0000
    Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-30 09:33 +0100
      Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-30 21:19 +0000
        Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-30 23:40 +0100
          Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-30 23:32 +0000
            Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-31 10:30 +0100
              Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-07-31 17:01 +0000
              Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-31 22:44 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2025-08-02 09:30 +1000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-01 23:50 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-02 10:03 +0100
      Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-02 13:36 +0100
        Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-02 14:59 +0100
          Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-02 23:59 +0000
          Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-03 12:13 +0100
            Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-03 12:58 +0100
              Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-03 16:34 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-03 17:08 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-03 18:20 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2025-08-04 09:35 +1000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-04 16:10 +0100
            Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-08-03 13:38 -0700
              Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-03 22:47 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-03 21:55 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-06 09:03 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-06 09:28 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-08-06 19:56 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-06 21:27 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-06 22:46 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-07 17:46 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-06 13:36 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-08-09 12:56 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-07 03:28 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-08-09 12:48 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-11 11:26 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-11 21:06 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-11 15:19 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-11 22:27 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-11 15:54 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-12 02:28 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-12 02:27 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-11 22:18 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-11 15:49 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-11 23:27 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-12 08:37 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-12 20:15 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-12 23:29 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 09:05 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-13 19:13 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-08-13 21:32 +0200
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-13 21:29 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-08-14 11:20 +0200
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-14 12:03 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-14 00:49 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-08-14 11:21 +0200
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-14 01:12 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-14 13:04 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-14 00:16 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-14 08:56 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-14 09:41 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-14 11:58 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-14 13:07 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-14 00:46 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-14 13:03 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-08-14 12:31 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-08-09 12:46 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-04 00:21 +0000
              Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-04 00:20 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-04 04:24 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-06 09:05 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-06 20:24 +0000
              Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-04 16:23 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-05 05:54 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-05 08:35 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-05 07:48 +0000
                Wayland (was: Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre) vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-08-06 02:28 +0000
                Re: Wayland (was: Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-06 04:22 +0000
                Re: Wayland Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-06 09:10 +0100
                Re: Wayland Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-08-06 14:42 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-05 11:04 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-05 20:02 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-05 08:29 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-08-05 18:19 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-05 19:59 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-05 12:02 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-05 20:10 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-06 04:24 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-08-05 21:46 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-06 06:33 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2025-08-06 09:13 +1000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-06 04:23 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-06 09:18 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-06 09:01 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-08-06 22:11 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-07 03:25 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-07 14:14 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-07 23:14 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-07 15:56 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-08 04:18 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-08-08 06:00 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-08 08:49 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-08 21:25 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-08 15:38 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-09 00:05 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-11 10:24 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-09 10:58 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-08-09 17:10 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-09 22:33 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-09 22:26 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-10 10:15 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-08-10 09:03 -0400
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-10 14:24 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-08-10 07:29 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-10 20:06 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-11 11:56 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-11 21:12 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-11 01:00 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-09 22:39 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-08 08:42 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-08-08 16:02 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2025-08-08 09:00 +1000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-08-09 13:05 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-06 09:15 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-08-06 14:46 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-05 08:26 -0700
        Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-03 00:06 +0000
  Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-30 11:42 +0100
    Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-07-30 19:39 +0000
      Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-31 01:06 +0100
    Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-30 21:23 +0000

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