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Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre

From	John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.os.linux.misc
Subject	Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre
Date	2025-08-07 14:14 -0700
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<20250807141447.000028d3@gmail.com> (permalink)
References	(14 earlier) <106thun$2tl20$1@dont-email.me> <20250805120229.00002255@gmail.com> <106ulcf$35j8e$3@dont-email.me> <20250806090124.00005af4@gmail.com> <10716ac$3ok85$4@dont-email.me>

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On Thu, 7 Aug 2025 03:25:00 -0000 (UTC)
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

> >> It doesn’t happen in the FOSS world.  
> > 
> > We've just been discussing it in the context of Wayland devs and
> > their imperious You Don't Need That attitude towards things that
> > have been standard window-manager functionality in *every other
> > extant GUI environment* since approximately the Mesozoic era ...  
> 
> Actually, GUI environments tend to be very different from each other,
> in completely idiosyncratic ways

Yes and no, but none of what you cite has anything to do with the point
at issue, which is that every current GUI framework* _except_ Wayland
provides the means for applications to do very basic things like size
and position their windows according to saved user preferences or find
out basic properties of the screen(s) for responsive layout purposes;
meanwhile, Wayland (until just recently) has refused to implement such
functionality, claiming that this is By Design and that Can't Be Done
without compromising security...

* (Whether you draw a distinction at the division of display server vs.
window manager/toolkit into distinct components or not, the comparison
is still apples-to-apples wrt. the relevant layers of the respective
systems.)

...and yet, when it became clear that they were getting real pushback
on this and stood a chance of failing in their bid to replace X11
because of it, *they blinked.* They backed down, sputtering, and began
looking for ways to provide the very functionality they'd insisted all
along Couldn't Be Done and Wasn't Needed Anyway - which goes to show
that their rationale was nonsense all along. They could've done this
*at any time,* but chose to be obstinate and autocratic instead,
because it was more gratifying to them to make everyone else dance to
their tune, up 'til the point where it looked like their own project
might suffer repercussions from it.

The only difference between that and, say, Microsoft's attitude wrt.
the endless enshittification of the Windows GUI that nobody asked for
but they keep pushing on people anyway is that, in *nix-land, people had
the choice to tell Wayland where to stick it, and so the Wayland devs
were forced to reckon with the consequences of alienating a sufficient
chunk of their desired userbase - but the *attitude* on display is very
much the same.

> Wayland, like X11 before it, conforms to the *nix-philosophy
> principle of “mechanism, not policy”. It leaves it to upper layers to
> implement particular policies, as dictated by particular GUi design
> paradigms.

Wayland is quite literally a case of developers deliberately hampering
Mechanism in subservience to Policy.

> Nothing “demented” about that. There have been real-world examples of
> apps trying to pretend to present login screens, or grabbing
> confidential bank- account data from other windows, that kind of
> thing.
> 
> X11 was born into a much more trusting environment. Security requires
> a whole rethink of the display server architecture, and that’s what
> Wayland does.

X11 is full of holes, yes - I am perfectly happy to acknowledge that.
It was also never particularly good to begin with, and is long overdue
for replacement with something less janky.

*However,* that does not make Wayland's rationale for hampering window-
management functionality not patent nonsense. Providing applications
with basic information about screen layout and allowing them to size
and position windows automatically does *not* implicitly require
allowing them to scrape the contents of *other* applications' windows,
snoop global keyboard input, or anything of that nature.

The proof of that is, again, in the Wayland devs' own actions - they
*backed down,* ultimately. If it were really impossible to implement
such capabilities securely, they would've stuck to their guns; the fact
that they didn't is the clearest possible evidence that their argument
never made any sense to begin with.

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Thread

Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-29 22:14 +0100
  Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-29 22:55 +0000
    Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-30 09:33 +0100
      Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-30 21:19 +0000
        Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-30 23:40 +0100
          Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-30 23:32 +0000
            Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-31 10:30 +0100
              Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-07-31 17:01 +0000
              Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-31 22:44 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2025-08-02 09:30 +1000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-01 23:50 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-02 10:03 +0100
      Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-02 13:36 +0100
        Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-02 14:59 +0100
          Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-02 23:59 +0000
          Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-03 12:13 +0100
            Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-03 12:58 +0100
              Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-03 16:34 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-03 17:08 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-03 18:20 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2025-08-04 09:35 +1000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-04 16:10 +0100
            Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-08-03 13:38 -0700
              Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-03 22:47 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-03 21:55 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-06 09:03 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-06 09:28 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-08-06 19:56 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-06 21:27 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-06 22:46 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-07 17:46 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-06 13:36 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-08-09 12:56 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-07 03:28 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-08-09 12:48 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-11 11:26 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-11 21:06 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-11 15:19 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-11 22:27 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-11 15:54 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-12 02:28 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-12 02:27 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-11 22:18 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-11 15:49 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-11 23:27 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-12 08:37 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-12 20:15 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-12 23:29 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 09:05 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-13 19:13 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-08-13 21:32 +0200
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-13 21:29 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-08-14 11:20 +0200
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-14 12:03 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-14 00:49 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-08-14 11:21 +0200
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-14 01:12 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-14 13:04 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-14 00:16 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-14 08:56 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-14 09:41 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-14 11:58 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-14 13:07 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-14 00:46 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-14 13:03 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-08-14 12:31 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-08-09 12:46 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-04 00:21 +0000
              Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-04 00:20 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-04 04:24 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-06 09:05 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-06 20:24 +0000
              Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-04 16:23 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-05 05:54 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-05 08:35 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-05 07:48 +0000
                Wayland (was: Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre) vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-08-06 02:28 +0000
                Re: Wayland (was: Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-06 04:22 +0000
                Re: Wayland Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-06 09:10 +0100
                Re: Wayland Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-08-06 14:42 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-05 11:04 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-05 20:02 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-05 08:29 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-08-05 18:19 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-05 19:59 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-05 12:02 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-05 20:10 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-06 04:24 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-08-05 21:46 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-06 06:33 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2025-08-06 09:13 +1000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-06 04:23 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-06 09:18 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-06 09:01 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-08-06 22:11 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-07 03:25 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-07 14:14 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-07 23:14 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-07 15:56 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-08 04:18 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-08-08 06:00 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-08 08:49 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-08 21:25 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-08 15:38 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-09 00:05 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-11 10:24 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-09 10:58 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-08-09 17:10 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-09 22:33 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-09 22:26 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-10 10:15 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-08-10 09:03 -0400
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-10 14:24 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-08-10 07:29 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-10 20:06 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-11 11:56 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-11 21:12 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-11 01:00 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-09 22:39 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-08 08:42 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-08-08 16:02 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2025-08-08 09:00 +1000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-08-09 13:05 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-06 09:15 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-08-06 14:46 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-05 08:26 -0700
        Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-03 00:06 +0000
  Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-30 11:42 +0100
    Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-07-30 19:39 +0000
      Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-31 01:06 +0100
    Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-30 21:23 +0000

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