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Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre

From John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com>
Newsgroups comp.os.linux.misc
Subject Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre
Date 2025-08-08 15:38 -0700
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <20250808153858.00006557@gmail.com> (permalink)
References (20 earlier) <wwvwm7e230z.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk> <20250807155622.00003411@gmail.com> <1073tqh$empg$7@dont-email.me> <20250808084918.00007e14@gmail.com> <1075q17$ukab$5@dont-email.me>

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On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 21:25:59 -0000 (UTC)
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

> >> If you allow don’t-care cases to apps the user trusts, then all it
> >> needs to bypass the do-care cases is to pretend to be an app that
> >> the user trusts.  
> > 
> > If that's a possibility, you've got a serious security failure on
> > your hands.  
> 
> You mean you just realized that?

No.

> > But if you *do,* the right thing is to fix the *actual* problem,
> > not to construct some Byzantine set of hypothetical safeguards ...  
> 
> You have to rethink the architecture. And realize that X11 + any
> number of “Byzantine safeguards” will never work quite as well as a
> purpose-built architecture+protocol that is designed from the ground
> up for security.

That was never the argument here; X11's cruftiness and insecurity is
not in dispute, and nobody (at least in this branch of the discussion)
was proposing slapping bandages on it 'til it got better. I am quite
prepared to accept that the best thing for freenix going forward would
be to replace it with a better system.

What we *have* been arguing over (since you've evidently lost track) is
Wayland's obstinate, autocratic approach to the design of what they
mean to *be* that better system; they expressly intend to replace X11
as the standard display server, but they have for years refused to
provide equivalent functionality that doesn't seem necessary to them.

They've claimed repeatedly that their reasons for this are based in
security concerns - but their own actions give the lie to that, since
they finally gave in (by the admission of some of their devs, because
they worried about losing their bid for acceptance otherwise.) If they
truly believed what they were saying, they wouldn't have done that.

And that rationale never made sense to begin with. If it were *ever*
the case that malicious actors could remotely induce a Wayland server
to display information and accept input on a user session, security
would *already* be compromised, whether they could control window size/
position or not. The thing to do is design a system where that *can't
happen* - hobbling legit programs on the off chance that you might
slightly hamper some future burglar is just inane.

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Thread

Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-30 09:33 +0100
  Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-30 21:19 +0000
    Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-30 23:40 +0100
      Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-30 23:32 +0000
        Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-31 10:30 +0100
          Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-07-31 17:01 +0000
          Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-31 22:44 +0000
            Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2025-08-02 09:30 +1000
              Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-01 23:50 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-02 10:03 +0100
  Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-02 13:36 +0100
    Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-02 14:59 +0100
      Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-02 23:59 +0000
      Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-03 12:13 +0100
        Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-03 12:58 +0100
          Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-03 16:34 +0100
            Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-03 17:08 +0100
            Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-03 18:20 +0000
            Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2025-08-04 09:35 +1000
              Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-04 16:10 +0100
        Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-08-03 13:38 -0700
          Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-03 22:47 +0100
            Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-03 21:55 +0000
              Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-06 09:03 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-06 09:28 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-08-06 19:56 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-06 21:27 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-06 22:46 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-07 17:46 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-06 13:36 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-08-09 12:56 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-07 03:28 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-08-09 12:48 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-11 11:26 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-11 21:06 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-11 15:19 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-11 22:27 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-11 15:54 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-12 02:28 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-12 02:27 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-11 22:18 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-11 15:49 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-11 23:27 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-12 08:37 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-12 20:15 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-12 23:29 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 09:05 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-13 19:13 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-08-13 21:32 +0200
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-13 21:29 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-08-14 11:20 +0200
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-14 12:03 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-14 00:49 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-08-14 11:21 +0200
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-14 01:12 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-14 13:04 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-14 21:00 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-14 22:48 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-08-15 02:56 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-14 00:16 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-14 08:56 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-14 09:41 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-14 11:58 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-14 13:07 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-14 00:46 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-14 13:03 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-08-14 12:31 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-08-09 12:46 +0000
            Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-04 00:21 +0000
          Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-04 00:20 +0000
            Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-04 04:24 +0000
            Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-06 09:05 +0100
              Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-06 20:24 +0000
          Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-04 16:23 +0100
            Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-05 05:54 +0000
              Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-05 08:35 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-05 07:48 +0000
                Wayland (was: Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre) vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-08-06 02:28 +0000
                Re: Wayland (was: Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-06 04:22 +0000
                Re: Wayland Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-06 09:10 +0100
                Re: Wayland Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-08-06 14:42 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-05 11:04 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-05 20:02 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-05 08:29 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-08-05 18:19 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-05 19:59 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-05 12:02 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-05 20:10 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-06 04:24 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-08-05 21:46 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-06 06:33 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2025-08-06 09:13 +1000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-06 04:23 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-06 09:18 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-06 09:01 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-08-06 22:11 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-07 03:25 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-07 14:14 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-07 23:14 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-07 15:56 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-08 04:18 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-08-08 06:00 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-08 08:49 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-08 21:25 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-08 15:38 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-09 00:05 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-11 10:24 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-09 10:58 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-08-09 17:10 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-09 22:33 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-09 22:26 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-10 10:15 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-08-10 09:03 -0400
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-10 14:24 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-08-10 07:29 -0700
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-10 20:06 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-11 11:56 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-11 21:12 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-11 01:00 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-09 22:39 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-08 08:42 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-08-08 16:02 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2025-08-08 09:00 +1000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-08-09 13:05 +0000
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-06 09:15 +0100
                Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-08-06 14:46 +0000
              Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-05 08:26 -0700
    Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-03 00:06 +0000

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