Re: energy and mass

Newsgroups	sci.physics.relativity, sci.electronics.design
Subject	Re: energy and mass
From	nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder)
Date	2026-03-17 21:21 +0100
Message-ID	<1rs4uy6.1ji39dd26mguN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> (permalink)
References	(18 earlier) <10p0bal$2p711$5@dont-email.me> <1rrwmmd.1c25t9pwot6n0N%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> <10p43k0$a44n$12@dont-email.me> <1rs17vr.1xbf71y29a409N%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> <nd7erk5dr6acatp48qj89bj03o7n0u6o6h@4ax.com>
Organization	De Ster

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 15 Mar 2026 21:57:00 +0100, nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
> Lodder) wrote:
> 
> >Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On 14/03/2026 8:05 am, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >> > Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
> >> > 
> >> >> On 13/03/2026 7:58 am, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >> >>> Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> On 12/03/2026 9:51 pm, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >> >>>>> Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>> On 12/03/2026 4:45 am, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >> >>>>>>> Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> On 11/03/2026 9:20 pm, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>> Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> On 11/03/2026 7:21 am, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/03/2026 2:29 am, Ross Finlayson wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 03/08/2026 07:44 AM, Bill Sloman wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/03/2026 2:19 pm, Ross Finlayson wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 03/07/2026 04:33 PM, Bill Sloman wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/03/2026 1:59 am, Ross Finlayson wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 03/06/2026 10:12 PM, Bill Sloman wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/03/2026 2:47 am, Ross Finlayson wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 03/06/2026 05:36 AM, Bill Sloman wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/03/2026 7:37 pm, Thomas Heger wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Dienstag000003, 03.03.2026 um 13:40 Bill Sloman:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/03/2026 8:06 pm, Thomas Heger wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Sonntag000001, 01.03.2026 um 11:03 Bill Sloman:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/03/2026 8:26 pm, Thomas Heger wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Samstag000028, 28.02.2026 Bill Sloman:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 28/02/2026 8:03 pm, Thomas Heger wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Donnerstag000026, 26.02.2026 um 15:05 Ross
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Finlayson:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 02/26/2026 02:21 AM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/02/2026 9:46 pm, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/02/2026 4:02 am, Ross Finlayson:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 02/24/2026 03:40 AM, J. J. Lodder:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ross Finlayson:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 02/23/2026 12:49 PM, J. J. Lodder:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ross Finlayson:
<incompetent snipping by sombody else>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> The consequent tidal forces inside the sun sap kinetic energy
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> from the earth's orbital movement, in the same way that tides
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> on earth are causing the moons orbit to change.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> This is a mistake. There is no tidal dissipation in the sun.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> The sun will have tides too and the tidal ridges and valleys on
> >> >>>>>>>>>> the surface of the will influence the movement of the earth, and
> >> >>>>>>>>>> the movement of surface of the sun will absorb energy.
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> You are clutching at straws to save an erroneous idea.
> >> >>>>>>>>> Sometimes it is easier to just admit to having made a mistake.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> Go ahead.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> There will be tidal dissipation in the sun, but not much of it.
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> Effectively nothing.
> >> >>>>>>>>> Remember that the relevant part of the sun is turbulent plasma.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> I'm well aware of it. Tidal excursions will still dissipate some
> >> >>>>>>>> energy.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> OK, OK, you are behaving like just another crackpot
> >> >>>>>>> who can't bring himself to admit that his pet idea is wrong.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> It's not my pet idea. It's just difficult for me to imagine that
> >> >>>>>> there won't be tides on the sun, or that the tidal flows will be
> >> >>>>>> non-dissipative.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Of course there will be a (very small) tide in the sun,
> >> >>>>> and of course it will not be completely non-dissipative.
> >> >>>>> That doesn't mean that it is in any way relevant.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> We weren't talking about relevance. I wanted to see a coherent world
> >> >>>> picture.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> A coherent world picture involves having correct ideas
> >> >>> about orders of magnitude, and relevance or irrelevance.
> >> >>
> >> >> If the tides exist, but are too small to be important, it isn't a reason
> >> >> to deny their very existence.
> >> >>
> >> >>> Or do you also include a note on the phases of the moon
> >> >>> in your electronics measurements?
> >> >>
> >> >> As a graduate student I used to joke that I ought to include it in my
> >> >> reaction data. I certainly need to record a lot of data that didn't look
> >> >> directly relevant
> >> >>
> >> >>>>>> It's easy to imagine that they won't be significant.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Imagining is always easy.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> It's a lot easier than doing plasma stability calculations.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>>> A turbulent plasma threaded by magnetic fields is not going to
> >> >>>>>> behave in a way that is going to be easy to analyse.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Indeed. Those in fusion research know all too well.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> And are very willing to tell people how difficult it is.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Sure, any excuse for not having a fusion reactor yet will do.
> >> >>
> >> >> The people I was in contact with - for a very different project -
> >> >> actually got their machine to fuse a few nuclei. They'd put off doing it
> >> >> until they'd got all the data they really needed because the neutron
> >> >> flux was high enough to leave insides of the machine dangerously
> >> >> radioactive, but it made for a nice sign-off press release.
> >> > 
> >> > I know, in tradition. They are good at press releases over there.
> >> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:A_sun_of_our_own_newspaper_headline.j
pg>
> >> > 
> >> >>>>>>> Enough said.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Sure. You  want to dismiss me as crank.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> That is a misunderstanding on your part.
> >> >>>>> I am telling you that you are behaving like one.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Sci.physics.relativity has enough cranks to make it a plausible
> >> >>>>>> strategy, and I've been exploiting it myself, but I'm probably
> >> >>>>>> not enough of a crank for it to work.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> It is not about what you are, it is about how you are behaving,
> >> >>>>> (on this particular point)
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> I do take care not to behave too much like a crank.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> FYI, you are behaving too much like a crank on this.
> >> >>> No better than for example TH on his growing Earth.
> >> >>> Is it really too hard for you to admit for once that you goofed?
> >> >>
> >> >> I have no problem admitting that I've goofed when I actually have
> >> >> goofed.
> >> > 
> >> > Well, you did.
> >> > May I remind you that we started out this sub-thread with your:
> >> > ========================================================================
> >> > Gravity applies a force. That isn't doing work. The earth orbits the sun
> >> > without doing much work at all. The consequent tidal forces inside the
> >> > sun sap kinetic energy from the earth's orbital movement, in the same
> >> > way that tides on earth are causing the moons orbit to change.
> >> > ========================================================================
> >> > 
> >> > This is just plain wrong.
> >> > The cause is the dragging of the tidal bulges on Earth.
> >> 
> >> What I posted was less specific than " The cause is the dragging of the
> >> tidal bulges on Earth" but it's not wrong. You can't have tidal bulges
> >> without a tide.
> >
> >Your
> >============================================================================
> >'The consequent tidal forces inside the sun sap kinetic energy from the
> >earth's orbital movement'
> >============================================================================
> >is competely wrong.
> 
> If earth creates tides in the sun, won't that warm up the sun and slow
> down earth? Conservation of energy and all that.
> Pretty small at this distance, I expect. One estimate is that solar
> tides increase the earth-sun distance about a micron per year. Not to
> worry, I guess.

The solar tides causes a significant fraction of the slow-down
of the angular rotation of the Earth. That doesn't lead to a significant
change of the orbit of the Earth because the orbital angular momentum of
the Earth around the Sun is so much larger than that of the Moon around
the Earth.

> >> >> My feeling is that you are now acting more like a crank than I did.
> >> > 
> >> > You might consider applying the First Law of Holes?
> >> 
> >> It strikes me that it you who is digging yourself into a hole, and every
> >> time you post another specious claim, you are looking even more like a
> >> crank.
> >
> >OK, you don't understand the tides, and you don't want to learn,
> >and you'll never admit to a mistake, no matter what.
> >We can leave it at that,
> >
> >Jan
> >
> >PS, and just for s.e.d readers, is he like that over there too?
> >
> 
> His mission in life is to tell everyone how stupid and wrong they are.

Indeed. So in spr he engages with all the nutters around,
and in consequence doesn't have much of interest to say.

He has missed the opportunity to learn something here,

Jan

-- 
"When you argue with a fool chances are that he is doing just the same"
(sig wasted on Sloman)

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Thread

Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-09 12:52 +1100
  Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-08 20:04 -0700
    Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-08 20:17 -0700
      Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-10 00:09 +1100
        Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-09 07:36 -0700
          Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-09 09:09 -0700
            Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-10 14:29 +1100
          Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-10 14:17 +1100
            Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-10 21:21 +0100
              Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-10 23:57 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-11 16:14 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-11 08:13 +0100
                Re: energy and mass "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2026-03-11 13:50 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-11 14:39 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-12 00:24 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-11 16:10 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-12 16:07 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-12 07:11 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-12 18:26 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-12 09:56 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-12 22:22 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-12 12:56 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-13 03:36 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-12 23:20 +0100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-12 14:16 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-13 03:45 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ronnie Pantelakos <ina@snl.gr> - 2026-03-12 17:38 +0000
                Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-03-12 22:12 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Tathan Nagahama <gagngt@mmatata.jp> - 2026-03-12 22:11 +0000
                Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-03-13 01:47 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Cristobal Umehara <be@iu.jp> - 2026-03-13 16:50 +0000
                Re: energy and mass Jairo Pantelakos <soaonjo@iai.gr> - 2026-03-14 13:21 +0000
                Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-03-14 16:18 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-14 20:46 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-14 16:59 -0700
                GPS (was: energy and mass) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-03-14 16:23 +0100
                Re: GPS (was: energy and mass) Brock Nakamura <cruan@bknkkror.jp> - 2026-03-14 15:39 +0000
                Re: GPS Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-03-14 18:31 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Virgil Dömötör <rr@egi.hu> - 2026-03-14 17:43 +0000
                Re: GPS (was: energy and mass) Kyndal Zsoldos <odondo@ndzsda.hu> - 2026-03-14 15:52 +0000
                Re: GPS Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-03-14 18:37 +0100
                Re: GPS Mikey Santiago <ime@ymsn.pt> - 2026-03-14 19:49 +0000
                Re: GPS Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-03-15 15:29 +0100
                Re: GPS Frauly Christakos <acrahr@afrafs.gr> - 2026-03-15 14:37 +0000
                Re: GPS Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-03-15 19:17 +0100
                Re: GPS Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-03-15 19:22 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Enmanuel Jacques <cucus@mulneam.fr> - 2026-03-15 20:00 +0000
                GPS (was: energy and mass) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-03-15 22:40 +0100
                Re: GPS Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-15 23:06 +0100
                Re: GPS (was: energy and mass) Nestor Rooijakkers <skk@ereno.nl> - 2026-03-16 14:15 +0000
                Re: GPS Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-03-16 15:37 +0100
                Re: GPS Bernie Gonzalez <inzbi@rol.es> - 2026-03-16 17:13 +0000
                Re: energy and mass athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-03-16 11:27 +0000
                Re: energy and mass Shay Hofwegen <gwg@eewyow.nl> - 2026-03-16 17:25 +0000
                Re: GPS Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-15 08:08 -0700
                Re: GPS Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-03-16 10:16 +0100
                Re: GPS Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-16 05:26 -0700
                Re: GPS Leopold Bicchieri <deo@rehi.it> - 2026-03-16 14:26 +0000
                Re: GPS Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-03-14 18:16 +0100
                Re: GPS Lowen Missiakos <osmi@wlss.gr> - 2026-03-14 17:49 +0000
                Re: GPS Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-03-14 19:44 +0100
                Re: GPS Ridge Górski <kgie@gigg.pl> - 2026-03-14 19:39 +0000
                Re: GPS Krinden Hoffmann <efne@roeaa.de> - 2026-03-15 14:44 +0000
                GPS (was: energy and mass) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-03-16 01:20 +0100
                GPS (was: energy and mass) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-03-16 01:22 +0100
                Re: GPS (was: energy and mass) Jovanni Rodrigues <iav@ignj.pt> - 2026-03-16 14:00 +0000
                Re: GPS Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-03-16 15:26 +0100
                Re: GPS Webster Schuchardt <tcbr@tteue.de> - 2026-03-16 14:33 +0000
                Re: GPS Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-16 07:54 -0700
                Re: GPS Hever Ramires <ihme@aermr.pt> - 2026-03-16 17:09 +0000
                Re: GPS Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-16 11:08 -0700
                Re: GPS Kile Karolina <oeelka@aili.net> - 2026-03-17 18:05 +0000
                Re: GPS Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-17 14:44 -0700
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-12 21:58 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Donel Profeta <aadeafe@nefe.it> - 2026-03-15 15:17 +0000
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-11 18:45 +0100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-11 11:20 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-03-12 10:35 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-12 22:29 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-03-13 10:24 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-14 03:42 +1100
                Re: energy and mass The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-03-15 21:42 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-16 21:50 +1100
                Re: energy and mass The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-03-16 08:55 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-17 18:06 +1100
                Re: energy and mass The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-03-17 01:14 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 00:29 +1100
                Re: energy and mass The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-03-17 10:34 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 15:49 +1100
                Re: energy and mass The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-03-18 00:27 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 21:00 +1100
                Re: energy and mass The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-03-18 11:07 -0700
                Re: energy and mass The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-03-18 11:47 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-19 15:14 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-19 07:47 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-19 18:11 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-19 15:07 +1100
                Re: energy and mass The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-03-18 23:07 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-19 18:24 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-19 09:31 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-19 20:38 +1100
                Re: energy and mass The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-03-19 11:54 -0700
                Re: energy and mass The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-03-20 11:59 -0700
                Re: energy and mass The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-03-20 15:28 -0700
                Re: energy and mass The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-03-22 12:12 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-23 23:05 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-21 16:23 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-19 07:47 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-18 07:32 -0700
              Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-11 15:56 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-11 11:20 +0100
        Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-09 10:59 -0700
          Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-09 11:41 -0700
            Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-09 13:18 -0700
    Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-09 23:59 +1100
      Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-09 07:32 -0700
        Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-09 21:49 +0100
          Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-09 15:24 -0700
            Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-10 15:37 +1100
              Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-09 22:07 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-10 16:58 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-09 23:26 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-10 09:25 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-11 04:33 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-10 10:45 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-11 16:26 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-11 08:19 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-12 00:34 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-11 16:10 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-12 16:16 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-12 07:13 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-12 18:39 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-12 09:58 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-12 10:17 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-12 22:42 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-12 13:03 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-13 03:50 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-12 23:23 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-12 07:05 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-12 22:31 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-11 08:38 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-11 08:55 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-11 00:28 -0700
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-10 21:45 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-11 03:36 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-10 10:13 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-11 16:51 +1100
            Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-10 21:21 +0100
        Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-10 14:51 +1100
  Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-10 21:21 +0100
    Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-11 17:02 +1100
      Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-11 11:20 +0100
        Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-12 01:00 +1100
          Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-11 18:45 +0100
            Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-11 12:48 -0700
            Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-12 16:33 +1100
              Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-12 11:51 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-13 04:09 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-12 21:58 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-13 17:36 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-13 22:05 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-13 14:55 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-13 21:29 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-15 03:49 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-15 21:57 +0100
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-15 14:18 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-15 17:24 -0700
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-15 18:10 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-16 14:49 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-16 05:14 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-17 01:52 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-16 08:04 -0700
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-16 08:32 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-17 18:24 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-17 10:49 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 00:43 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-17 15:35 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 03:33 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-17 17:39 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 06:36 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-17 20:41 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 21:10 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-18 11:37 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 23:29 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-18 13:37 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-17 07:48 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 03:58 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-16 14:47 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-17 21:21 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 15:56 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-18 13:05 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 23:25 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-16 14:41 +1100

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