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Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules"

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Mark Lemmert <mark.lemmert@gmail.com> writes:

> On Thursday, June 22, 2017 at 7:19:57 PM UTC-5, anthon...@gmail.com wrote: 
>> I am finally learning the quirks of Apple II hi-res graphics due to
>> this thread. I wonder if it was really >worth having this crazy
>> graphics scheme with all its quirks and limitations and headache to
>> developers >just to save a few bucks in chips given the huge profit
>> margin on the Apple ][. Hindsight is indeed 20/20, >but I wonder if
>> Woz would do things a bit differently if he had known how high the
>> markup was going to >be. For example, if I knew that I would be
>> making, say, $500 profit on a $1000 computer of my own >design, I
>> would gladly give up $50 or $100 of that profit in order to ensure
>> that my graphics mode was >the best there was and easy to program
>> compared to any of my competitors (Commodore, Atari, IBM, >Tandy,
>> etc...). After all, a better graphics mode that's easier to program
>> means more developers for the >system (ease of use), faster
>> development times, more programs, more sales, and ultimately more
>> money >in my pocket. Perhaps I'm simplifying things but I've always
>> been curious about whether the trade-off >was really worth it and
>> how things would have turned out if they had not skimped on the
>> graphics.
>
>
> I recall this being a very interesting thread. When I made the OP, I
> could not have imagined it would get as comprehensive as it did with
> so many knowledgeable people contributing. I’m glad you found it
> helpful.
>
> As to Woz’s decisions about chips and the implications on the graphics
> scheme. My speculation is that he may have been forced to choose
> between bad outcomes. Clearly he was under budget constraints and if
> he spent more on the chips to make graphics easier, something else may
> have been modified with even more frustrating implications.
>
> As you noted, there is a business question of was making an extra $X
> in profit was worth the implications (i.e should the budget have been
> increased), but I wouldn’t be surprised if that was largely outside of
> his control.

I think the speculation on our parts is all hindsight.  From everything
I've read about Woz, including what he's said himself, he was trying to
minimize the chip count.  That he got color lo-res, plus hi-res as a
bonus, was probably quite satisfying to him at the time.  He had no
interest in the business side of things; that was Jobs' contribution.
And there was no way that either of them could tell that the Apple II
was going to take off like it did.

After it became successful, there was the issue of compatibility.  We
could speculate on and on about what could have been done.  In fact,
this newsgroup has seen quite a number of such discussions over the
years. :) When you read about the attitude within Apple during the late
70s and early 80s, they thought the Apple II would "run out of gas" a
lot sooner than it did.  Coupled with their plans with the Apple III,
Lisa, and Macintosh, I doubt they wanted anything to steal the thunder
from the new machines.  Thus, no "great" graphics improvements.  Even
the IIgs, while it sported higher resolution and better colors, did not
provide state-of-the-art hardware-enabled speedups for graphics.  Its
graphics were still bottlenecked by the 1MHz bus.

Just to add another idea about what they could have done...  they could
have left the original 40-column mode and its graphics (lo-res and
280-dot hi-res) as-is, but added new video modes in the IIe that were
completely decoupled from the old ones.  Or even defined a "standard"
video card that provided better video capabilities with support from the
firmware and DOS/ProDOS, along with room for future improvements.  This
wouldn't have caused any backwards incompatibility, anymore than the
IIe's 80-column mode or double-hi-res did.  It might have even allowed
for third-parties to offer hardware acceleration with full
compatibility.  But as it is, they chose the simplest way to squeeze a
bit more out of the fewest additional components.

-- 
--
Jerry    awanderin at gmail dot com

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Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Mark Lemmert <mark.lemmert@gmail.com> - 2016-02-15 11:40 -0800
  Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" gids.rs@sasktel.net - 2016-02-15 12:33 -0800
    Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" gids.rs@sasktel.net - 2016-02-15 12:38 -0800
      Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Mark Lemmert <mark.lemmert@gmail.com> - 2016-02-15 14:11 -0800
        Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2016-02-16 14:22 +1300
          Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Mark Lemmert <mark.lemmert@gmail.com> - 2016-02-15 18:33 -0800
    Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Mark Lemmert <mark.lemmert@gmail.com> - 2016-02-15 14:08 -0800
      Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" gids.rs@sasktel.net - 2016-02-15 19:39 -0800
        Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" gids.rs@sasktel.net - 2016-02-15 19:47 -0800
          Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" David Schmidt <schmidtd@my-deja.com> - 2016-02-15 23:25 -0500
            Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" gids.rs@sasktel.net - 2016-02-16 08:42 -0800
        Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Mark Lemmert <mark.lemmert@gmail.com> - 2016-02-16 11:28 -0800
        Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" denisbytezone@gmail.com - 2016-02-18 14:53 -0800
          Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Mark Lemmert <mark.lemmert@gmail.com> - 2016-02-18 15:28 -0800
          Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" gids.rs@sasktel.net - 2016-02-18 15:31 -0800
            Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" denisbytezone@gmail.com - 2016-02-18 15:42 -0800
              Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" gids.rs@sasktel.net - 2016-02-18 15:52 -0800
                Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" gids.rs@sasktel.net - 2016-02-18 16:09 -0800
              Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" gids.rs@sasktel.net - 2016-02-18 16:42 -0800
              Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Michael Pohoreski <michael.pohoreski@gmail.com> - 2016-02-22 11:01 -0800
          Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2016-02-19 12:47 +1300
          Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" gids.rs@sasktel.net - 2016-02-18 15:49 -0800
            Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" gids.rs@sasktel.net - 2016-02-18 16:02 -0800
  Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Michael Pohoreski <michael.pohoreski@gmail.com> - 2016-02-16 11:34 -0800
    Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Mark Lemmert <mark.lemmert@gmail.com> - 2016-02-16 12:00 -0800
      Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Michael Pohoreski <michael.pohoreski@gmail.com> - 2016-02-16 13:47 -0800
  Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Michael Pohoreski <michael.pohoreski@gmail.com> - 2016-02-16 13:41 -0800
    Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Mark Lemmert <mark.lemmert@gmail.com> - 2016-02-16 19:02 -0800
    Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Mark Lemmert <mark.lemmert@gmail.com> - 2016-02-17 18:09 -0800
      Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" marc.depeo@brbent.com - 2016-02-18 00:43 -0800
        Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" wssimms@gmail.com - 2016-02-18 01:48 -0800
          Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" AppleIIGSMarc <appleiigsmarc@gmail.com> - 2016-02-18 08:50 -0800
            Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" AppleIIGSMarc <appleiigsmarc@gmail.com> - 2016-02-18 10:45 -0800
              Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Michael Pohoreski <michael.pohoreski@gmail.com> - 2016-02-18 20:24 -0800
                Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" wssimms@gmail.com - 2016-02-18 20:32 -0800
                Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" AppleIIGSMarc <appleiigsmarc@gmail.com> - 2016-02-18 21:05 -0800
            Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" gids.rs@sasktel.net - 2016-02-18 15:08 -0800
            Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Mark Lemmert <mark.lemmert@gmail.com> - 2016-02-18 15:31 -0800
          Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Michael Pohoreski <michael.pohoreski@gmail.com> - 2016-02-18 13:18 -0800
            Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" wssimms@gmail.com - 2016-02-18 18:15 -0800
          Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Michael Pohoreski <michael.pohoreski@gmail.com> - 2016-03-01 11:58 -0800
  Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Michael Pohoreski <michael.pohoreski@gmail.com> - 2016-02-16 14:05 -0800
    Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Mark Lemmert <mark.lemmert@gmail.com> - 2016-02-16 19:12 -0800
      Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" "Michael J. Mahon" <mjmahon@aol.com> - 2016-02-17 15:22 -0800
        Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Mark Lemmert <mark.lemmert@gmail.com> - 2016-02-17 16:14 -0800
  Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" denisbytezone@gmail.com - 2016-02-19 14:34 -0800
    Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Mark Lemmert <mark.lemmert@gmail.com> - 2016-02-19 16:17 -0800
      Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" denisbytezone@gmail.com - 2016-02-19 19:19 -0800
        Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Michael Pohoreski <michael.pohoreski@gmail.com> - 2016-02-19 22:25 -0800
          Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" denisbytezone@gmail.com - 2016-02-19 23:12 -0800
            Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Michael Pohoreski <michael.pohoreski@gmail.com> - 2016-02-19 23:27 -0800
              Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Michael Pohoreski <michael.pohoreski@gmail.com> - 2016-02-19 23:31 -0800
                Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" wssimms@gmail.com - 2016-02-20 04:02 -0800
                Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Michael Pohoreski <michael.pohoreski@gmail.com> - 2016-02-20 11:40 -0800
                Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Michael Pohoreski <michael.pohoreski@gmail.com> - 2016-02-20 11:48 -0800
        Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Mark Lemmert <mark.lemmert@gmail.com> - 2016-02-20 08:10 -0800
          Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" denisbytezone@gmail.com - 2016-02-20 16:25 -0800
            Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Michael Pohoreski <michael.pohoreski@gmail.com> - 2016-02-20 16:37 -0800
            Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Mark Lemmert <mark.lemmert@gmail.com> - 2016-02-20 18:29 -0800
              Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" gids.rs@sasktel.net - 2016-02-20 20:00 -0800
                Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Mark Lemmert <mark.lemmert@gmail.com> - 2016-02-20 20:53 -0800
                Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" gids.rs@sasktel.net - 2016-02-20 23:11 -0800
                Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" denisbytezone@gmail.com - 2016-02-21 00:23 -0800
                Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" wssimms@gmail.com - 2016-02-21 01:41 -0800
                Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" wssimms@gmail.com - 2016-02-21 01:43 -0800
                Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" denisbytezone@gmail.com - 2016-02-21 02:29 -0800
                Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" denisbytezone@gmail.com - 2016-02-21 02:40 -0800
                Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" wssimms@gmail.com - 2016-02-21 08:03 -0800
                Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" gids.rs@sasktel.net - 2016-02-21 09:55 -0800
                Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" gids.rs@sasktel.net - 2016-02-21 10:28 -0800
                Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" gids.rs@sasktel.net - 2016-02-21 14:42 -0800
                Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Michael J. Mahon <mjmahon@aol.com> - 2016-02-22 14:13 -0600
                Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Michael Pohoreski <michael.pohoreski@gmail.com> - 2016-02-21 20:49 -0800
                Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" anthonypaulo@gmail.com - 2017-06-22 17:19 -0700
                Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Mark Lemmert <mark.lemmert@gmail.com> - 2017-06-22 18:05 -0700
                Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" awanderin <awanderin@gmail.com> - 2017-06-22 23:00 -0600
                Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Michael J. Mahon <mjmahon@aol.com> - 2017-06-23 12:59 -0500
                Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" David Schmenk <dschmenk@gmail.com> - 2017-06-23 13:12 -0700
                Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Michael Pohoreski <michael.pohoreski@gmail.com> - 2017-06-25 07:30 -0700
                Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" anthonypaulo@gmail.com - 2017-06-25 08:30 -0700
                Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Michael J. Mahon <mjmahon@aol.com> - 2017-06-25 13:55 -0500
                Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Charlie <charlieDOTd@verEYEzon.net> - 2017-06-23 11:26 -0400
                Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Michael Pohoreski <michael.pohoreski@gmail.com> - 2017-06-25 07:45 -0700
                Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" anthonypaulo@gmail.com - 2017-06-25 08:33 -0700
                Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" anthonypaulo@gmail.com - 2017-06-25 08:38 -0700
                Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" David Schmenk <dschmenk@gmail.com> - 2017-06-25 12:07 -0700
                Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" anthonypaulo@gmail.com - 2017-06-25 16:29 -0700
    Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Michael J. Mahon <mjmahon@aol.com> - 2016-02-20 00:27 -0600
      Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" denisbytezone@gmail.com - 2016-02-19 23:14 -0800
  Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Michael Pohoreski <michael.pohoreski@gmail.com> - 2016-03-01 11:48 -0800
    Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Michael J. Mahon <mjmahon@aol.com> - 2016-03-01 16:24 -0600
    Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Mark Lemmert <mark.lemmert@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 10:05 -0800
      Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Michael Finger <mike.finger@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 13:21 -0700
        Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Michael Pohoreski <michael.pohoreski@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 13:32 -0700
        Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" gids.rs@sasktel.net - 2016-04-06 15:15 -0700
          Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Michael Pohoreski <michael.pohoreski@gmail.com> - 2017-06-25 06:17 -0700
            Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" gids.rs@sasktel.net - 2017-06-25 21:33 -0700
              Re: Assembly Hi-Res Graphics, question about color patterns that seem to violate the "rules" Michael Pohoreski <michael.pohoreski@gmail.com> - 2017-06-26 11:12 -0700

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