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Groups > comp.lang.java.programmer > #8176
| From | Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.java.programmer |
| Subject | Re: Style Police (a rant) |
| References | <j39fdc$1hi$1@dont-email.me> <4e6d1fc5$0$308$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> <slrnj717ia.6gl.avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> <j4ri24$p96$1@dont-email.me> <9drbm7FtpjU1@mid.individual.net> |
| Message-ID | <Op9eq.38805$OO1.23618@newsfe02.iad> (permalink) |
| Organization | Public Usenet Newsgroup Access |
| Date | 2011-09-20 20:34 -0300 |
On 11-09-20 08:28 AM, blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote: [ SNIP ] > > Well, yes, but .... You don't think there's pedagogical value > in having students reinvent some fairly basic wheels? (I'm a bit > uncertain myself -- it's hard not to think that every programmer > should do some of these basic things *ONCE*, since otherwise there's > some basic understanding that's lost, but then again the knowledge > base keeps expanding, and expanding, and maybe these days it really > is so much more important to know how to use the building blocks > than to create them that nothing is gained by making sure you *know* > how to create them.) > There are knowledge bases and then there are knowledge bases. In one very real sense the knowledge base that's really exploding is primarily applications. It's not fundamental knowledge. When I learn a new language, or a new version of Java EE, or how a different ECM does records management, or how a new web framework works, or the nooks and crannies of a new datastore (whether an RDBMS or NoSQL), etc etc etc, it's no different than saying that a music or film critic has to keep on learning an ever expanding corpus of songs or movies. It's knowledge, sure, but it's not fundamental. Fundamental knowledge for me, in our profession, is computer science, the best of software engineering thought, and the domain knowledge that is applicable to the businesses you serve. All the rest of it, the kind of stuff I mention a few examples of above, is just knowledge of tools and techniques. In the big scheme of things most of that stuff is ephemeral. So I'm partial to the idea that developers should still spend serious time on basics. An hour spent learning about sorting will be valuable forever; an hour spent figuring out some weirdness of Java EE App Destroyer 10.5.2.3 Fixpack 1414 may be of considerable value if it gets that application deployed in time for the release date, but the scope and lifetime of its value is pretty limited. I keep on running into situations where it's been useful/essential to obtain source and debug down into the guts of dozens of libraries - C, Perl, C++, Java, C#, you name it - that I've used in my career. Or you have to hand edit generated artifacts that are flat out wrong. Sometimes you don't have source and have to decompile, if possible. Point being, you'll never be able to rely on black box building blocks, not 100 percent of the time. To adapt old military precepts concerning intent and ability, you have to have some decent awareness of what's happening two levels down and two levels up. You'll operate 90+ percent of the time at a certain level of the technology stack, but if that is *all* you know about, then sooner or later you are going to be in trouble. AHS
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Re: Style Police (a rant) Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2011-09-10 06:45 +0200
Re: Style Police (a rant) Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2011-09-10 11:40 +0000
Re: Style Police (a rant) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2011-09-10 14:06 -0700
Re: Style Police (a rant) Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2011-09-11 14:07 +0000
Re: Style Police (a rant) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-09-11 10:55 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2011-09-11 23:34 +0000
Re: Style Police (a rant) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-09-11 10:58 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-09-11 10:12 -0700
Re: Style Police (a rant) Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2011-09-14 12:22 +0000
Re: Style Police (a rant) Bent C Dalager <bcd@pvv.ntnu.no> - 2011-09-14 15:04 +0000
Re: Style Police (a rant) Paul Cager <paul.cager@googlemail.com> - 2011-09-14 09:36 -0700
Re: Style Police (a rant) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2011-09-11 09:47 -0700
Re: Style Police (a rant) Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2011-09-11 23:32 +0000
Re: Style Police (a rant) Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2011-09-17 00:57 +0200
Re: Style Police (a rant) Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2011-09-17 19:56 +0000
Re: Style Police (a rant) Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2011-09-11 21:20 +0200
Re: Style Police (a rant) Cthun <cthun_117@qmail.net.au> - 2011-09-11 17:11 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2011-09-12 01:22 +0200
Re: Style Police (a rant) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-09-11 21:13 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) Retahiv Oopsiscame <roopsisc@gmail.com> - 2011-09-11 16:54 -0700
Re: Style Police (a rant) Cthun <cthun_117@qmail.net.au> - 2011-09-11 23:42 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) Retahiv Oopsiscame <roopsisc@gmail.com> - 2011-09-12 21:54 -0700
Re: Style Police (a rant) "Cthun" <cthun_117@qmail.net.au> - 2011-09-13 07:18 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) Cthun <cthun_117@qmail.net.au> - 2011-09-13 10:07 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2011-09-13 08:15 -0700
Re: Style Police (a rant) Cthun <cthun_117@qmail.net.au> - 2011-09-13 12:00 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) Cthun <cthun_117@qmail.net.au> - 2011-09-13 10:10 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) Retahiv Oopsiscame <roopsisc@gmail.com> - 2011-09-13 09:55 -0700
Re: Style Police (a rant) Cthun <cthun_117@qmail.net.au> - 2011-09-15 10:37 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) "Cthun" <cthun_9112011@qmail.net.au> - 2011-09-15 22:58 -0400
Murphy = Troll [DO NOT FEED] thoolen <th00len@th0lenbot.thorium> - 2011-09-16 00:23 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) Retahiv Oopsiscame <roopsisc@gmail.com> - 2011-09-16 03:26 -0700
Re: Style Police (a rant) un-Bent <dob@dib.dib.null> - 2011-09-16 13:02 +0000
Murphy = Troll [DO NOT FEED] thoolen <th00len@th0lenbot.thorium> - 2011-09-16 22:40 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) Cthun <cthun_117@qmail.net.au> - 2011-09-17 19:36 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) "kaffel'latte" <jiggingjava@qmail.net> - 2011-09-19 08:58 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) thoolen <th00len@th0lenbot.thorium> - 2011-09-19 11:56 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) "kaffel'latte" <jiggingjava@qmail.net> - 2011-09-19 17:05 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) thoolen <th00len@th0lenbot.thorium> - 2011-09-19 19:13 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) k00k Derbyshire spins freely "kaffel'latte" <jiggingjava@qmail.net> - 2011-09-19 20:45 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) k00k Derbyshire spins freely thoolen <th00len@th0lenbot.thorium> - 2011-09-21 18:37 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) Retahiv Oopsiscame <roopsisc@gmail.com> - 2011-09-26 15:13 -0700
Re: Style Police (a rant) Cthun <cthun_117@qmail.net.au> - 2011-09-26 19:34 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) Retahiv Oopsiscame <roopsisc@gmail.com> - 2011-10-01 06:49 -0700
Re: Style Police (a rant) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2011-10-01 09:21 -0700
Re: Style Police (a rant) Cthun <cthun_117@qmail.net.au> - 2011-10-01 14:17 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2011-10-01 20:53 +0200
Re: Style Police (a rant) Cthun <cthun_117@qmail.net.au> - 2011-10-01 21:12 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) Retahiv Oopsiscame <roopsisc@gmail.com> - 2011-10-05 06:17 -0700
Re: Style Police (a rant) "Cthun" <cthun_117@qmail.net.au> - 2011-09-12 04:56 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) Cthun <cthun_117@qmail.net.au> - 2011-09-12 05:12 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) "Cthun" <cthun_117@qmail.net.au> - 2011-09-12 04:59 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) Cthun <cthun_117@qmail.net.au> - 2011-09-12 05:13 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2011-09-11 23:17 +0000
Re: Style Police (a rant) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-09-11 21:12 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-09-12 07:36 -0300
Re: Style Police (a rant) "Cthun" <cthun_117@qmail.net.au> - 2011-09-12 04:58 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) Cthun <cthun_117@qmail.net.au> - 2011-09-12 05:12 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2011-09-11 15:33 +0200
Re: Style Police (a rant) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2011-09-11 09:42 -0700
Re: Style Police (a rant) Lars Enderin <lars.enderin@telia.com> - 2011-09-11 20:35 +0200
Re: Style Police (a rant) Retahiv Oopsiscame <roopsisc@gmail.com> - 2011-09-11 16:55 -0700
Re: Style Police (a rant) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2011-09-11 20:36 -0700
Re: Style Police (a rant) Lars Enderin <lars.enderin@telia.com> - 2011-09-12 10:05 +0200
Re: Style Police (a rant) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2011-09-12 15:35 -0700
Re: Style Police (a rant) Lars Enderin <lars.enderin@telia.com> - 2011-09-13 10:35 +0200
Re: Style Police (a rant) Retahiv Oopsiscame <roopsisc@gmail.com> - 2011-09-13 09:48 -0700
Re: Style Police (a rant) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2011-09-13 12:18 -0700
Re: Style Police (a rant) Retahiv Oopsiscame <roopsisc@gmail.com> - 2011-09-13 17:30 -0700
Re: Style Police (a rant) Retahiv Oopsiscame <roopsisc@gmail.com> - 2011-09-12 21:59 -0700
Re: Style Police (a rant) Joe Attardi <jattardi@gmail.com> - 2011-09-23 10:54 -0700
Re: Style Police (a rant) thoolen <th00len@th0lenbot.thorium> - 2011-09-24 01:54 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) "tholen@antispam.ham" <tholen@ifa.hawaii.edu> - 2011-09-24 02:58 -0700
Re: Style Police (a rant) thoolen <th00len@th0lenbot.thorium> - 2011-09-24 11:35 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) Joe Attardi <jattardi@gmail.com> - 2011-09-26 13:50 -0700
Re: Style Police (a rant) Jane Doe <jdoe@love.in.d.jungle.invalid> - 2011-09-26 21:14 +0000
Re: Style Police (a rant) thoolen <th00len@th0lenbot.thorium> - 2011-09-26 17:50 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) thoolen <th00len@th0lenbot.thorium> - 2011-09-26 17:47 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) Retahiv Oopsiscame <roopsisc@gmail.com> - 2011-09-26 15:17 -0700
Re: Style Police (a rant) Jane Doe <jdoe@love.in.d.jungle.invalid> - 2011-09-27 00:50 +0000
Re: Style Police (a rant) tisue@cs.nwu.edu (Seth Tisue) - 2011-09-27 08:55 -0600
Re: Style Police (a rant) thoolen <th00len@th0lenbot.thorium> - 2011-09-27 14:14 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) thoolen <th00len@th0lenbot.thorium> - 2011-09-27 14:11 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) Retahiv Oopsiscame <roopsisc@gmail.com> - 2011-10-01 07:31 -0700
Re: Style Police (a rant) thoolen <th00len@th0lenbot.thorium> - 2011-09-26 22:24 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) Jane Doe <jdoe@love.in.d.jungle.invalid> - 2011-09-27 09:30 +0000
Re: Style Police (a rant) tisue@cs.nwu.edu (Seth Tisue) - 2011-09-27 08:57 -0600
Re: Style Police (a rant) thoolen <th00len@th0lenbot.thorium> - 2011-09-27 14:38 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) thoolen <th00len@th0lenbot.thorium> - 2011-09-27 14:36 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2011-09-30 15:58 +0000
Re: Style Police (a rant) Retahiv Oopsiscame <roopsisc@gmail.com> - 2011-10-01 07:32 -0700
Re: Style Police (a rant) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-09-30 21:26 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) Retahiv Oopsiscame <roopsisc@gmail.com> - 2011-10-01 07:34 -0700
Re: Style Police (a rant) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-10-01 15:51 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) Retahiv Oopsiscame <roopsisc@gmail.com> - 2011-10-05 06:18 -0700
Re: Style Police (a rant) "Cthun" <cthun_117@qmail.net.au> - 2011-10-01 16:26 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) thoolen <th00len@th0lenbot.thorium> - 2011-10-01 21:25 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) Retahiv Oopsiscame <roopsisc@gmail.com> - 2011-10-05 06:23 -0700
Re: Style Police (a rant) Cthun <cthun_117@qmail.net.au> - 2011-10-05 10:01 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) Retahiv Oopsiscame <roopsisc@gmail.com> - 2011-10-07 08:29 -0700
Re: Style Police (a rant) Cthun <cthun_117@qmail.net.au> - 2011-10-07 17:34 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) Retahiv Oopsiscame <roopsisc@gmail.com> - 2011-09-12 21:58 -0700
Re: Style Police (a rant) "Cthun" <cthun_117@qmail.net.au> - 2011-09-12 04:52 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) Cthun <cthun_117@qmail.net.au> - 2011-09-12 05:14 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) "Cthun" <cthun_117@qmail.net.au> - 2011-09-12 06:42 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) Cthun <cthun_117@qmail.net.au> - 2011-09-12 07:20 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) "Cthun" <cthun_117@qmail.net.au> - 2011-09-12 08:46 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) thoolen <th00len@th0lenbot.thorium> - 2011-09-12 21:03 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-09-12 20:18 +0100
Re: Style Police (a rant) Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2011-09-11 21:20 +0200
Re: Style Police (a rant) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2011-09-11 13:52 -0700
Re: Style Police (a rant) Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2011-09-12 00:17 +0000
Re: Style Police (a rant) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-09-10 21:32 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2011-09-11 13:27 +0200
Re: Style Police (a rant) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-09-11 11:05 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2011-09-11 13:23 +0000
Re: Style Police (a rant) Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2011-09-11 10:04 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-09-11 12:45 -0300
Re: Style Police (a rant) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-09-11 16:53 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2011-09-14 12:30 +0000
Re: Style Police (a rant) Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2011-09-14 20:47 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2011-09-14 18:06 -0700
Re: Style Police (a rant) Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2011-09-15 10:06 +0000
Re: Style Police (a rant) blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-09-20 11:28 +0000
Re: Style Police (a rant) Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2011-09-20 07:36 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2011-09-20 13:04 +0000
Re: Style Police (a rant) Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-09-20 20:34 -0300
Re: Style Police (a rant) Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-09-14 22:33 -0300
Re: Style Police (a rant) Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2011-09-15 13:46 +0000
Re: Style Police (a rant) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-09-14 21:40 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2011-09-11 10:59 -0400
Re: Style Police (a rant) Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2011-09-11 21:25 +0000
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