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Re: Agile Project Management

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Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> Lew wrote:
> > Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> >> Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> >>> Lew wrote:
> >>>> Arved Sandstrom wrote:
> >>>>> I don't think the OP meant ~800 person *project*.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Once we start getting into these examples I'd like to see a clear
> >>>>> understanding of what numbers are involved in what roles on what pieces.
> >>>>> I can think of examples from my own experience where a software
> >>>>> development team of maybe a dozen or fifteen folks (developers, team
> >>>>> lead, technical architect, PM, QA/QC types etc) fell into the following
> >>>>> slots:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1. as the only software development team in a small (<30 people) product
> >>>>> company;
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 2. as one of several similar sized teams in a ~100 person IT shop in a
> >>>>> small/mid-sized (several thousand people) services organization. Each
> >>>>> team working independently on their own IT projects;
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 3. As the only team working on a specific product in a large (10,000+
> >>>>> persons) IT company. Dozens upon dozens of other teams, many larger,
> >>>>> some smaller. But this team is insular and works on one thing.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In these 3 examples mentioning the size of the organization (~25, ~2000,
> >>>>> ~25000) is irrelevant.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You're absolutely right, though, Patricia: for an 800-person *project*
> >>>>> you sure would want clean interfaces. Myself I don't think that adopting
> >>>>> agile is either going to help you or hinder you in achieving that good
> >>>>> architecture; either you know what you're doing or you don't.
> >>>>
> >>>> If you have structured an 800-person project in this sense, not
> >>>> decomposed
> >>>> into 5- to 12-person autonomous projects, then either you don't know what
> >>>> you're doing or you don't.
> >>>
> >>> If would put it the exact opposite if a 800 person project is split
> >>> into 80 autonomous projects of 10 persons, then the management it
> >>> totally clueless.
> >>
> >> Imagine some autonomous web UI projects choosing:
> >> - PHP
> >> - Struts
> >> - JSF
> >> and some autonomous persistence projects choosing:
> >> - Oracle with SP's
> >> - DB2 with Hibernate
> >
> > Full communication between each member of a team requires geometric
> > increase in communication bandwidth with team size. Autonomy, within a
> > shared framework as you aptly point out, is a necessity for such a large
> > organization to function effectively.
> 
> Maybe technical leadership ~= shared framework??
> 
> > In practice it works out all right that one team chooses PHP and another
> > JSF,
> 
> Single signon and session sharing becomes a problem.
> 
> >  or as in my experience, one programmer C and another Fortran.
> 
> Increases skill sets necessary for maintenance.
> 
> >               Where teams must share a common resource, say that choice
> > between Oracle and DB2 you describe, one of those small teams could be the
> > database team. It would then function autonomously to serve the needs of
> > the other teams, the database team's clients.
> 
> If they pick Oracle and operations know DB2 and not Oracle, then
> that will not work.
> 
> > Surely you don't profess that 800 people on a team should work as a single
> > unit? That is a proven antipattern. You have to break that large a group
> > into manageable sizes, and those smaller groups must have autonomy.
> 
> I disagree on that.
> 
> > However, not to the /reductio ad absurdum/ point you mention. Analogously,
> > you and I have autonomy in our posts to this newsgroup, yet we work within
> > a common framework of the English language. Autonomy is not synonymous
> > with isolation.
> 
> Speaking English is sufficient to understand what the other
> part is saying.
> 
> But making a big IT project succeed require a lot more than that.

Again, there's a difference between autonomy and isolation. Within the 
overarching framework, each team must be autonomous with respect to its 
own responsibilities. You seem to interpret "autonomy" as "no one 
communicates with each other". That's not what it means. What it does 
mean is, "Each group makes its own decisions within its sphere of 
responsibility."

Your counter-examples do not negate autonomy, they negate isolation.

-- 
Lew

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Agile Project Management Iqra Educational Portal <iqraeducationalportal@gmail.com> - 2012-02-08 22:51 -0800
  Re: Agile Project Management Lionel <lionelv@none.com> - 2012-02-09 21:53 +1000
    Re: Agile Project Management markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-09 09:45 -0800
      Re: Agile Project Management Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-02-09 14:09 -0800
        Re: Agile Project Management Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-09 20:24 -0400
          Re: Agile Project Management Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-11 18:09 -0500
        Re: Agile Project Management Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-02-10 09:03 -0800
        Re: Agile Project Management Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2012-02-11 00:25 +0000
          Re: Agile Project Management Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-10 22:32 -0400
            Re: Agile Project Management Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-02-10 18:35 -0800
  Re: Agile Project Management Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-02-09 09:45 -0800
  Re: Agile Project Management simplicity <stella_pigeon@live.ca> - 2012-02-10 08:26 -0800
    Re: Agile Project Management Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-02-10 23:28 +0100
      Re: Agile Project Management Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-02-10 15:40 -0800
        Re: Agile Project Management Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-02-10 16:22 -0800
          Re: Agile Project Management Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-02-11 01:04 -0600
            Re: Agile Project Management Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-02-11 12:23 -0800
            Re: Agile Project Management eric@invalid.com (EricF) - 2012-02-12 05:17 +0000
          Re: Agile Project Management Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-02-12 14:52 +0100
          Re: Agile Project Management Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-02-13 11:33 -0800
    Re: Agile Project Management Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-11 18:05 -0500
      Re: Agile Project Management Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-02-11 23:46 +0000
        Re: Agile Project Management Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-11 18:58 -0500
          Re: Agile Project Management Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-02-12 15:46 +0000
            Re: Agile Project Management Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-12 10:58 -0500
      Re: Agile Project Management simplicity <stella_pigeon@live.ca> - 2012-02-11 22:43 -0800
        Re: Agile Project Management Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-12 09:19 -0500
          Re: Agile Project Management Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-02-12 07:08 -0800
            Re: Agile Project Management Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-12 11:11 -0500
            Re: Agile Project Management Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-12 12:12 -0400
              Re: Agile Project Management Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-02-12 09:00 -0800
                Re: Agile Project Management Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-12 12:06 -0500
                Re: Agile Project Management Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-12 13:13 -0500
                Re: Agile Project Management Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-02-12 12:55 -0800
                Re: Agile Project Management Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-12 16:29 -0500
                Re: Agile Project Management Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-12 16:35 -0500
                Re: Agile Project Management Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-02-12 17:04 -0800
                Re: Agile Project Management Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-16 21:28 -0500
                Re: Agile Project Management Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-02-17 02:15 -0800
          Re: Agile Project Management Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-12 11:43 -0400
            Re: Agile Project Management Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-12 11:03 -0500
              Re: Agile Project Management Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-12 13:25 -0400
                Re: Agile Project Management Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-12 13:34 -0500
            Re: Agile Project Management Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-02-12 11:55 -0600
        Re: Agile Project Management eric@invalid.com (EricF) - 2012-02-13 04:38 +0000
          Re: Agile Project Management simplicity <stella_pigeon@live.ca> - 2012-02-14 08:04 -0800
            Re: Agile Project Management Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-02-14 08:50 -0800
              Re: Agile Project Management Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-02-14 11:11 -0600
                Re: Agile Project Management Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-02-14 09:17 -0800
            Re: Agile Project Management Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-16 21:26 -0500

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