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Re: Agile Project Management

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On 2/12/2012 8:04 PM, Lew wrote:
> Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> Lew wrote:
>>> Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>> Lew wrote:
>>>>>> Arved Sandstrom wrote:
>>>>>>> I don't think the OP meant ~800 person *project*.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Once we start getting into these examples I'd like to see a clear
>>>>>>> understanding of what numbers are involved in what roles on what pieces.
>>>>>>> I can think of examples from my own experience where a software
>>>>>>> development team of maybe a dozen or fifteen folks (developers, team
>>>>>>> lead, technical architect, PM, QA/QC types etc) fell into the following
>>>>>>> slots:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. as the only software development team in a small (<30 people) product
>>>>>>> company;
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2. as one of several similar sized teams in a ~100 person IT shop in a
>>>>>>> small/mid-sized (several thousand people) services organization. Each
>>>>>>> team working independently on their own IT projects;
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3. As the only team working on a specific product in a large (10,000+
>>>>>>> persons) IT company. Dozens upon dozens of other teams, many larger,
>>>>>>> some smaller. But this team is insular and works on one thing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In these 3 examples mentioning the size of the organization (~25, ~2000,
>>>>>>> ~25000) is irrelevant.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You're absolutely right, though, Patricia: for an 800-person *project*
>>>>>>> you sure would want clean interfaces. Myself I don't think that adopting
>>>>>>> agile is either going to help you or hinder you in achieving that good
>>>>>>> architecture; either you know what you're doing or you don't.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you have structured an 800-person project in this sense, not
>>>>>> decomposed
>>>>>> into 5- to 12-person autonomous projects, then either you don't know what
>>>>>> you're doing or you don't.
>>>>>
>>>>> If would put it the exact opposite if a 800 person project is split
>>>>> into 80 autonomous projects of 10 persons, then the management it
>>>>> totally clueless.
>>>>
>>>> Imagine some autonomous web UI projects choosing:
>>>> - PHP
>>>> - Struts
>>>> - JSF
>>>> and some autonomous persistence projects choosing:
>>>> - Oracle with SP's
>>>> - DB2 with Hibernate
>>>
>>> Full communication between each member of a team requires geometric
>>> increase in communication bandwidth with team size. Autonomy, within a
>>> shared framework as you aptly point out, is a necessity for such a large
>>> organization to function effectively.
>>
>> Maybe technical leadership ~= shared framework??
>>
>>> In practice it works out all right that one team chooses PHP and another
>>> JSF,
>>
>> Single signon and session sharing becomes a problem.
>>
>>>   or as in my experience, one programmer C and another Fortran.
>>
>> Increases skill sets necessary for maintenance.
>>
>>>                Where teams must share a common resource, say that choice
>>> between Oracle and DB2 you describe, one of those small teams could be the
>>> database team. It would then function autonomously to serve the needs of
>>> the other teams, the database team's clients.
>>
>> If they pick Oracle and operations know DB2 and not Oracle, then
>> that will not work.
>>
>>> Surely you don't profess that 800 people on a team should work as a single
>>> unit? That is a proven antipattern. You have to break that large a group
>>> into manageable sizes, and those smaller groups must have autonomy.
>>
>> I disagree on that.
>>
>>> However, not to the /reductio ad absurdum/ point you mention. Analogously,
>>> you and I have autonomy in our posts to this newsgroup, yet we work within
>>> a common framework of the English language. Autonomy is not synonymous
>>> with isolation.
>>
>> Speaking English is sufficient to understand what the other
>> part is saying.
>>
>> But making a big IT project succeed require a lot more than that.
>
> Again, there's a difference between autonomy and isolation. Within the
> overarching framework, each team must be autonomous with respect to its
> own responsibilities. You seem to interpret "autonomy" as "no one
> communicates with each other". That's not what it means. What it does
> mean is, "Each group makes its own decisions within its sphere of
> responsibility."
>
> Your counter-examples do not negate autonomy, they negate isolation.

Really?

I consider isolation to be a question about information flow and
autonomy to be a matter of having decision power.

And I am definitely talking about having decision power.

Arne

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Agile Project Management Iqra Educational Portal <iqraeducationalportal@gmail.com> - 2012-02-08 22:51 -0800
  Re: Agile Project Management Lionel <lionelv@none.com> - 2012-02-09 21:53 +1000
    Re: Agile Project Management markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-09 09:45 -0800
      Re: Agile Project Management Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-02-09 14:09 -0800
        Re: Agile Project Management Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-09 20:24 -0400
          Re: Agile Project Management Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-11 18:09 -0500
        Re: Agile Project Management Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-02-10 09:03 -0800
        Re: Agile Project Management Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2012-02-11 00:25 +0000
          Re: Agile Project Management Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-10 22:32 -0400
            Re: Agile Project Management Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-02-10 18:35 -0800
  Re: Agile Project Management Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-02-09 09:45 -0800
  Re: Agile Project Management simplicity <stella_pigeon@live.ca> - 2012-02-10 08:26 -0800
    Re: Agile Project Management Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-02-10 23:28 +0100
      Re: Agile Project Management Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-02-10 15:40 -0800
        Re: Agile Project Management Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-02-10 16:22 -0800
          Re: Agile Project Management Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-02-11 01:04 -0600
            Re: Agile Project Management Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-02-11 12:23 -0800
            Re: Agile Project Management eric@invalid.com (EricF) - 2012-02-12 05:17 +0000
          Re: Agile Project Management Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-02-12 14:52 +0100
          Re: Agile Project Management Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-02-13 11:33 -0800
    Re: Agile Project Management Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-11 18:05 -0500
      Re: Agile Project Management Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-02-11 23:46 +0000
        Re: Agile Project Management Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-11 18:58 -0500
          Re: Agile Project Management Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-02-12 15:46 +0000
            Re: Agile Project Management Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-12 10:58 -0500
      Re: Agile Project Management simplicity <stella_pigeon@live.ca> - 2012-02-11 22:43 -0800
        Re: Agile Project Management Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-12 09:19 -0500
          Re: Agile Project Management Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-02-12 07:08 -0800
            Re: Agile Project Management Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-12 11:11 -0500
            Re: Agile Project Management Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-12 12:12 -0400
              Re: Agile Project Management Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-02-12 09:00 -0800
                Re: Agile Project Management Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-12 12:06 -0500
                Re: Agile Project Management Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-12 13:13 -0500
                Re: Agile Project Management Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-02-12 12:55 -0800
                Re: Agile Project Management Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-12 16:29 -0500
                Re: Agile Project Management Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-12 16:35 -0500
                Re: Agile Project Management Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-02-12 17:04 -0800
                Re: Agile Project Management Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-16 21:28 -0500
                Re: Agile Project Management Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-02-17 02:15 -0800
          Re: Agile Project Management Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-12 11:43 -0400
            Re: Agile Project Management Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-12 11:03 -0500
              Re: Agile Project Management Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-12 13:25 -0400
                Re: Agile Project Management Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-12 13:34 -0500
            Re: Agile Project Management Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-02-12 11:55 -0600
        Re: Agile Project Management eric@invalid.com (EricF) - 2012-02-13 04:38 +0000
          Re: Agile Project Management simplicity <stella_pigeon@live.ca> - 2012-02-14 08:04 -0800
            Re: Agile Project Management Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-02-14 08:50 -0800
              Re: Agile Project Management Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-02-14 11:11 -0600
                Re: Agile Project Management Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-02-14 09:17 -0800
            Re: Agile Project Management Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-16 21:26 -0500

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