Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation

From	rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation
Date	2013-07-06 10:56 -0400
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<kr9aus$c6$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(17 earlier) <7x61wo8xr2.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <kr7k4f$end$2@dont-email.me> <7x4nc88qc5.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <kr86n4$2ur$1@dont-email.me> <7x61wouu15.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

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On 7/6/2013 1:39 AM, Paul Rubin wrote:
> rickman<gnuarm@gmail.com>  writes:
>> You mean coding this in C would take no more than 15 minutes?  Yes,
>> that might be true if you are experienced in the processor you are
>> using.
>
> C is pretty similar from one processor to another, for stuff like this.
>
>
>> By that I mean, you need to know how to get input into the algorithm
>> and output from the algorithm, no?  Or do you just want to code this
>> as a standalone function?
>
> Standalone function is good enough.
>
>> I looked at the code enough to understand it.  Yes, it should be easy
>> to do.  The only issue in the GA144 is the memory.
>
> Sure, and the only issue between me and the US presidency is billions of
> dollars and much better hair.  The memory matters.
>
>> So it would need to allocate the memory of some neighbors using them
>> as a memory farm.  I have not looked at coding that function so far
>> but it is not hard in principle.
>
> Nice.  Unlike you I actually have looked at coding it.  It's doable in
> practice (not just in principle) but it's a pain in the neck by the
> standards that I'm used to.
>
>> To be most effective the farm nodes would process instructions passed
>> to them from another node allowing all 64 words to be utilized as
>> memory.  I haven't done that, but it is not hard in principle.
>
> Another handwave.  Let's see you write the code before saying how hard
> or easy it is.
>
>> If I find the time later I might do the memory farm coding just
>> to teach myself how to do that.  I will share it with you.
>
> Great, I'd like to see it.  There are examples in the application notes
> if that helps.
>
>> Certainly the algorithm is very simple other than the memory space.
>
> Yes, that's the whole point I'm making.  The F18's limited memory space
> means that the GA144 turns simple algorithms complicated.
>
>> Is AES essential to your use or was that just an example app?
>
> For an authentication token, I have some flexibility about algorithms,
> but all of the reasonably standardized ones seem to be difficult.
>
>> Uh, the RC4 stream cipher is not a niche application?  Isn't
>> everything specific a niche?  What is that supposed to mean?
>
> I'd say AES (and to some extent RC4) have requirements common to digital
> communication stuff.  Analog stuff like you seem to be doing may be
> different.
>
>> The processing consists of a bit of signal processing to extract and
>> reproduce an IRIG-B signal... This could easily tax any conventional
>> processor such as a 100 MHz ARM CM3 or CM4 or even an ARM9 I think.
>
> Note you can get the CM4 at 200 mhz (STM).
>
>>  From what I know now I could have easily done this using the
>> GA144. The 33 MHz serial control interface should not be any
>> difficulty with some 200-300 MIPS and I don't see any reason why I
>> couldn't do the entire rest of the design in a GA144 partitioning it
>
> That sounds pretty horrendous to me, but you know your application best.
>
>> If it weren't for my concerns about the company, I would have no
>> doubt at all that the GA144 would do the job better than the existing
>> devices.
>
> I'm glad to hear this.  You're working in an area closer to what the
> GA144 was designed for, I'd guess.
>
>> I don't know what you mean by external Polyforth.
>
> There is a virtual stack machine implemented in three GA nodes next to
> the external memory interface.  That lets you use Polyforth from
> external ram.
>
>> The eval board has external memory ... My understanding is that Chuck
>> has come up with an interface that runs at 10's of MHz.  The 200 ns
>> timing the example code from GA provides is a bit bogus.
>
> I'm glad to hear Chuck has it going faster, but if it was that easy, why
> did it take this long?  Have they released the code?
>
>> You say "concrete" evidence, but have provided *none*.  You just give
>> your opinion of the GA documentation.
>
> I'm talking about the implementation of MD5 in the app notes, of AES and
> RSA in that conference paper, and of math and screen functions on
> Chuck's blog.
>
>> Maybe the GA144 is not well suited to AES.  That does not surprise
>> me. I'm sure there are plenty of things the GA144 doesn't do well.
>
> But I want to do those things.
>
>> I believe some of the newest devices are around 200 uA per MHz which
>> would be just under 10 uA at 32 kHz.  I'm not sure that is still watch
>> battery capable.
>
> Yeah, you want to be at 1 uA or so.  I looked at AVR data sheets for a
> minute but don't see numbers.  I seem to remember them for old PIC's.
>
>> What have you considered where the floorplanning would be consequential?
>
> It is an issue for everything that requires more than 1 node.  If you
> look at GA's MD5 implementation it obviously was a factor.  I've heard
> similar things said about the SEA40.  If Forther is still here maybe he
> can weigh in.
>
>> You didn't learn to use an MCU in a day or a week or a month.  Why do
>> you think you will learn everything about using a new style of
>> processor like the GA144 in a few days?
>
> Without learning to use either, I can get an idea of the device
> capabilities by seeing what other people are doing and looking at the
> code they write.  In the GA144's case, it doesn't look pretty.
>
>> What was the code you were trying to write?  If you were trying to use
>> it for AES, then I can't help you.
>
> Crypto devices including algorithms like AES were among a few examples.

Ok, so I would say you are trying to use a Bowie knife to mix mortar. 
Is there any point in continuing this conversation?

-- 

Rick

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Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2013-06-24 11:02 +0200
  Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-24 05:54 -0700
    Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2013-06-25 10:51 +0200
      Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-25 02:29 -0700
        Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2013-06-25 14:06 +0200
          Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-25 10:34 -0700
            Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2013-06-26 11:03 +0200
              Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-26 22:18 -0700
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2013-06-27 12:09 +0200
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-27 11:15 -0400
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-27 09:55 -0700
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-27 15:02 -0400
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-06-30 21:43 -0700
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-01 12:09 -0700
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 16:44 -0400
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-01 18:14 -0700
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2013-07-02 10:36 +0200
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-07-02 03:12 -0700
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-02 10:17 -0700
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-07-02 16:35 -0400
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-07-02 16:33 -0400
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-03 00:51 -0700
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2013-07-03 10:38 +0200
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 09:26 -0400
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-04 10:08 -0700
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 13:07 -0400
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-04 10:34 -0700
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 13:31 -0400
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-04 12:22 -0700
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-04 12:27 -0700
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-07-05 17:05 -0400
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-05 15:09 -0700
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-07-05 19:21 -0400
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-05 17:49 -0700
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-07-06 00:38 -0400
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-05 22:39 -0700
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-07-06 10:56 -0400
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-06 20:35 -0700
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-07-07 10:44 +0000
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-07-07 12:48 -0400
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-07 01:20 -0700
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2013-07-08 11:49 +0200
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-07-08 09:55 -0400
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-07-06 12:48 -0400
          Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2013-07-08 14:47 +0200
            Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-08 09:37 -0700
            Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-07-09 11:32 +0000
              Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2013-07-09 14:27 +0200
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Bill Richards <billrich@gmx.com> - 2013-07-09 13:41 +0000
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-07-09 09:23 -0500
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-07-10 02:27 +0000
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Bill Richards <billrich@gmx.com> - 2013-07-10 07:34 +0000
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-07-10 03:18 -0500
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-10 01:43 -0700
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-07-16 08:31 -0700
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-07-10 03:02 -0500
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-07-09 15:14 +0000
      Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-07-15 12:27 -0700
        Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2013-07-16 11:52 +0200

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