Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation

From	Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation
Date	2013-07-05 22:39 -0700
Organization	Nightsong/Fort GNOX
Message-ID	<7x61wouu15.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> (permalink)
References	(16 earlier) <kr7c6i$end$1@dont-email.me> <7x61wo8xr2.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <kr7k4f$end$2@dont-email.me> <7x4nc88qc5.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <kr86n4$2ur$1@dont-email.me>

Show all headers | View raw

rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes:
> You mean coding this in C would take no more than 15 minutes?  Yes,
> that might be true if you are experienced in the processor you are
> using.  

C is pretty similar from one processor to another, for stuff like this.

> By that I mean, you need to know how to get input into the algorithm
> and output from the algorithm, no?  Or do you just want to code this
> as a standalone function?

Standalone function is good enough.

> I looked at the code enough to understand it.  Yes, it should be easy
> to do.  The only issue in the GA144 is the memory. 

Sure, and the only issue between me and the US presidency is billions of
dollars and much better hair.  The memory matters.

> So it would need to allocate the memory of some neighbors using them
> as a memory farm.  I have not looked at coding that function so far
> but it is not hard in principle. 

Nice.  Unlike you I actually have looked at coding it.  It's doable in
practice (not just in principle) but it's a pain in the neck by the
standards that I'm used to.

> To be most effective the farm nodes would process instructions passed
> to them from another node allowing all 64 words to be utilized as
> memory.  I haven't done that, but it is not hard in principle.

Another handwave.  Let's see you write the code before saying how hard
or easy it is.

> If I find the time later I might do the memory farm coding just
> to teach myself how to do that.  I will share it with you.

Great, I'd like to see it.  There are examples in the application notes
if that helps.

> Certainly the algorithm is very simple other than the memory space.

Yes, that's the whole point I'm making.  The F18's limited memory space
means that the GA144 turns simple algorithms complicated.

> Is AES essential to your use or was that just an example app?

For an authentication token, I have some flexibility about algorithms,
but all of the reasonably standardized ones seem to be difficult.

> Uh, the RC4 stream cipher is not a niche application?  Isn't
> everything specific a niche?  What is that supposed to mean? 

I'd say AES (and to some extent RC4) have requirements common to digital
communication stuff.  Analog stuff like you seem to be doing may be
different.

> The processing consists of a bit of signal processing to extract and
> reproduce an IRIG-B signal... This could easily tax any conventional
> processor such as a 100 MHz ARM CM3 or CM4 or even an ARM9 I think. 

Note you can get the CM4 at 200 mhz (STM).

> From what I know now I could have easily done this using the
> GA144. The 33 MHz serial control interface should not be any
> difficulty with some 200-300 MIPS and I don't see any reason why I
> couldn't do the entire rest of the design in a GA144 partitioning it

That sounds pretty horrendous to me, but you know your application best.

> If it weren't for my concerns about the company, I would have no
> doubt at all that the GA144 would do the job better than the existing
> devices.

I'm glad to hear this.  You're working in an area closer to what the
GA144 was designed for, I'd guess.

> I don't know what you mean by external Polyforth. 

There is a virtual stack machine implemented in three GA nodes next to
the external memory interface.  That lets you use Polyforth from
external ram.

> The eval board has external memory ... My understanding is that Chuck
> has come up with an interface that runs at 10's of MHz.  The 200 ns
> timing the example code from GA provides is a bit bogus. 

I'm glad to hear Chuck has it going faster, but if it was that easy, why
did it take this long?  Have they released the code?

> You say "concrete" evidence, but have provided *none*.  You just give
> your opinion of the GA documentation.

I'm talking about the implementation of MD5 in the app notes, of AES and
RSA in that conference paper, and of math and screen functions on
Chuck's blog.

> Maybe the GA144 is not well suited to AES.  That does not surprise
> me. I'm sure there are plenty of things the GA144 doesn't do well.

But I want to do those things.

> I believe some of the newest devices are around 200 uA per MHz which
> would be just under 10 uA at 32 kHz.  I'm not sure that is still watch
> battery capable.

Yeah, you want to be at 1 uA or so.  I looked at AVR data sheets for a
minute but don't see numbers.  I seem to remember them for old PIC's.

> What have you considered where the floorplanning would be consequential?

It is an issue for everything that requires more than 1 node.  If you
look at GA's MD5 implementation it obviously was a factor.  I've heard
similar things said about the SEA40.  If Forther is still here maybe he
can weigh in.

> You didn't learn to use an MCU in a day or a week or a month.  Why do
> you think you will learn everything about using a new style of
> processor like the GA144 in a few days?

Without learning to use either, I can get an idea of the device
capabilities by seeing what other people are doing and looking at the
code they write.  In the GA144's case, it doesn't look pretty.

> What was the code you were trying to write?  If you were trying to use
> it for AES, then I can't help you.  

Crypto devices including algorithms like AES were among a few examples.

Back to comp.lang.forth | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar

Thread

Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2013-06-24 11:02 +0200
  Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-24 05:54 -0700
    Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2013-06-25 10:51 +0200
      Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-25 02:29 -0700
        Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2013-06-25 14:06 +0200
          Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-25 10:34 -0700
            Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2013-06-26 11:03 +0200
              Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-26 22:18 -0700
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2013-06-27 12:09 +0200
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-27 11:15 -0400
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-27 09:55 -0700
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-27 15:02 -0400
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-06-30 21:43 -0700
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-01 12:09 -0700
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 16:44 -0400
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-01 18:14 -0700
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2013-07-02 10:36 +0200
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-07-02 03:12 -0700
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-02 10:17 -0700
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-07-02 16:35 -0400
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-07-02 16:33 -0400
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-03 00:51 -0700
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2013-07-03 10:38 +0200
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 09:26 -0400
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-04 10:08 -0700
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 13:07 -0400
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-04 10:34 -0700
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 13:31 -0400
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-04 12:22 -0700
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-04 12:27 -0700
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-07-05 17:05 -0400
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-05 15:09 -0700
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-07-05 19:21 -0400
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-05 17:49 -0700
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-07-06 00:38 -0400
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-05 22:39 -0700
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-07-06 10:56 -0400
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-06 20:35 -0700
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-07-07 10:44 +0000
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-07-07 12:48 -0400
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-07 01:20 -0700
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2013-07-08 11:49 +0200
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-07-08 09:55 -0400
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-07-06 12:48 -0400
          Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2013-07-08 14:47 +0200
            Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-08 09:37 -0700
            Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-07-09 11:32 +0000
              Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2013-07-09 14:27 +0200
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Bill Richards <billrich@gmx.com> - 2013-07-09 13:41 +0000
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-07-09 09:23 -0500
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-07-10 02:27 +0000
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Bill Richards <billrich@gmx.com> - 2013-07-10 07:34 +0000
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-07-10 03:18 -0500
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-10 01:43 -0700
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-07-16 08:31 -0700
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-07-10 03:02 -0500
                Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-07-09 15:14 +0000
      Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-07-15 12:27 -0700
        Re: Announcing Mecrisp-Stellaris - a native code ARM-Cortex implementation Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2013-07-16 11:52 +0200

csiph-web