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Groups > aus.computers > #73884
| From | "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | aus.computers |
| Subject | Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds |
| Date | 2026-04-08 14:07 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <op.3nf0fjd2byq249@pvr2.lan> (permalink) |
| References | (7 earlier) <69d43583@news.ausics.net> <op.3nds39c7byq249@pvr2.lan> <69d58f59@news.ausics.net> <op.3nfp33d2byq249@pvr2.lan> <69d5b884@news.ausics.net> |
Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote > Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote >> Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote >>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote >>>> Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote >>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote >>>>>> Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote >>>>>>> Axel <none@not.here> wrote >>>>>>>> keithr0 wrote >>>>>>>>> Rod Speed wrote >>>>>>>>>> Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote >>>>>>>>>>> keithr0 <me@bugger.off.com.au> wrote >>>>>>>>>>>> https://arstechnica.com/ai/2026/04/research-finds-ai-users-scarily- >>>>>>>>>>>> willing-to-surrender-their-cognition-to-llms/ >>>>>>>>>>> Not surprising at all. It's much the same as all the stories >>>>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>>>> people getting stuck somewhere because they blindly followed >>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>> satnav. I'm frequently bewildered by how willing people are to >>>>>>>>>>> offload often important decisions to some perceived authority >>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>> known failings or ulterior motives, but of course politics and >>>>>>>>>>> religion are based on exactly that common willingness. Such AIs >>>>>>>>>>> have all the potential to join those as a new major social >>>>>>>>>>> power. >>>>>>>>>> Just like you do with google >>>>>>>>> Google simply points you to places where information exists. >>>>>>>>> Usually >>>>>>>>> there are several, you can read and assess the source material, >>>>>>>>> instead of just getting a summary usually without attribution >>>>>>>> Google AI gives the sources >>>>>>> I already showed you where it didn't give me any sources >>>>>> Depends on how you invoke it, it does with Gemini >>>>> Nope >>>> Yep >>>> https://g.co/gemini/share/0d063966763e >>> Still missing sources for many of its facts. >> More of your lies >>> Weirdly the few source >>> links which are on that page won't even open for me in Firefox, >>> you click and nothing happens, even though they work in my own >>> Gemini responses (when it gives me some). >>>>> Gemini gave me lots of sources for paintings after >>>>> misinterpreting my question about "Winter Landscape" by Josef Jahn, >>>>> as I posted here earlier. >>>> No you didnt >>> Yes I did, here: <698590f2@news.ausics.net> >> That link doesnt work > It's not a link, Of course its a link > it's the message-id of my post in the "Google AI > is great" thread. You can look it up with somenewsreaders if your news > server supports that. Few do >>>>> Then when I followed up with more >>>>> specific questions noting "Winter Landscape" was a tracker module >>>>> its answers didn't include any sources anymore >>>> So you lied about no sources >>> Zero sources in the responses to the questions about the tracker >>> module, sources were only in the first response when it uselessly >>> talked about paintings. >>>>> and it started making things up. >>>> More of your lies >>> Here are the key bits again: >>> QUESTION: >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> what year was the tracker module Winter Landscape by Josef Jahn >>> released? >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> >>> ANSWER: >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> The tracker module "Winter Landscape" by Josef Jahn was released in >>> 1996. >>> [waffle... waffle... waffle...] >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> QUESTION: >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> winter landscape by Josef Jahn release year >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> >>> ANSWER: >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> Actually, there appears to be a slight mix-up with the name. The >>> famous tracker module titled "Winter Landscape" was actually >>> composed by Jogeir Liljedahl, not Josef Jahn. >>> It was released in 1995 (specifically around November) as part of >>> the Amiga demoscene. >>> [waffle... waffle... waffle...] >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> As I said before: >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> The module file itself says: >>> Winter Landscape >>> (C) 2001 Josef Jahn >>> http://www.playspoon.com >>> And if you view the author's long-dead website on the Wayback >>> Machine it confirms that it was: "written by Josef Jahn 31 December >>> 2001": >>> http://web.archive.org/web/20060130235039/http://www.playspoon.com/awf/index.php?id=137 >>> The correct info is also on the modern web at The Mod Archive, >>> where their news talks about struggling to keep the site online >>> against the waves of AI bots recently scraping it to death. Not >>> that it did this AI any good apparantly. Searching "winter >>> landscape" there quickly brings it up a single correct result: >>> https://modarchive.org/index.php?request=view_by_moduleid&query=171297 >>> Where you can see "(C) 2001 Josef Jahn" under "Internal Texts". But >>> I guess that's above the intelligence of the Artificial Idiot that >>> also got other facts in its waffle wrong, and provided no >>> references to check with that response. >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> But OK let's try again and see what nonsense it's got to waffle >>> about now: >>> (I guess you need a Google account to make those permanent Gemini >>> answer links) >>> QUESTION: >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> what year was the tracker module Winter Landscape by Josef Jahn >>> released? >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> >>> ANSWER: >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> The tracker module **"Winter Landscape"** by **Josef Jahn** was >>> released in **1996**. >>> Josef Jahn is a veteran of the tracker music scene, particularly >>> known for his work in the mid-to-late 90s across platforms like the >>> Amiga and PC. His tracks often appeared on "mod" archives and were >>> featured in various demoscene productions and early internet radio >>> playlists. >>> ### Release Context >>> * **Format:** The track was primarily distributed as a **.mod** or >>> **.s3m** module file. >>> * **Scene Presence:** Jahn's work from this era is frequently >>> characterized by melodic, atmospheric electronic styles. "Winter >>> Landscape" is often cited alongside his other popular 1996-1997 >>> tracks, such as *"The Wolf Inside"* and *"Deep in the Forest"*. >>> * **Modern Accessibility:** While originally shared on BBS >>> (Bulletin Board Systems) and early file repositories like Aminet or >>> The Hornet Archive, the track still surfaces today on >>> tracker-focused radio stations (like *Ericade Radio*) that >>> specialize in 90s Amiga and PC modules. >>> --- >>> > **Technical Note:** In the tracking community, Josef Jahn is also >>> recognized for his contributions beyond music, including his work >>> as a developer for tools like the **RF Explorer** Windows client. >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> It's back to 1996 for the year, >> Hardly surprising that it doesnt search the wayback machine yet > It doesn't need to. It's easily found with a search on The Mod > Archive where I linked to the page for Winter Landscape, and > probably other mod sites too. Hardly surprising that it doesnt search the mod archive yet > Besides if it can't find an answer a useful AI would say that > instead of making up facts from thin air and trying to sell them > with more misleading waffle. It didnt make up anything >>> and has lots of new wrong waffle >>> about it being in .mod and .s3m formats when it's a .it module, and >>> talking about Aminet when it's not an Amiga module, and just a >>> general wall of made up nonsense with no sources at all. >>> Oh but it does give me one source this time, for this part at the >>> end: >>> "Technical Note: In the tracking community, Josef Jahn is also >>> recognized for his contributions beyond music, including his >>> work as a developer for tools like the RF Explorer Windows >>> client." >>> - cite: >>> https://www.scribd.com/document/396728188/RF-Explorer-for-Windows-Release-Notes >>> The cite window shows a quote where the only names mentioned are >>> here: >>> "(thanks users Shaun O'Sullivan and Stewart Andreason)" >>> Yeah, great work Gemini, it can't even remember the name it's >>> looking for, let alone figure out that RF Explorer has nothing to >>> do with "the tracking community" (it's a handheld radio spectrum >>> analyser device with a PC interface). >>> Besides that, there are still no cites for anything beside its >>> "technical note", so you can't so easily tell how irrelevent the >>> rest of its info is, including the year I was asking about. >>>>> Doing a web search with the same prompt brought >>>>> up irrelevent Wikipedia pages which it was clearly pulling info >>>>> from. >>>> So a google search would have failed too >>> Indeed, and you can see that it has failed because all the results >>> are obviously irrelevent, including the irrelevent Wikipedia page >>> for Jogeir Liljedahl which came up in Duck Duck Go's results. >>> Therefore you ignore them and search a specific site like The Mod >>> Archive and get an accurate answer. >> So your mindless bullshit about googling being >> much better than AI was just that, mindless bullshit > No you've lost your mind, I never said Googling was better. Yes you did > Like I say I don't even use Google for web searches. You never said that > But you can search > for specific sites like The Mod Archive and then search on them and > get real facts instead of some AI BS. There is no such thing with most questions > Since that can be a hassle I tried AI to see if it made it easier > to find things like that which are harder to search the web for. > It's worse, it gives you lies instead. More of your lies > Clearly web searches are > better than that, even when they don't find what you're looking > for. >>> AI on the other hand covers up the failure by waffling on and on >>> with all sorts of semi-accurate facts to try and make the response >>> sound relevent when actually it's completely away with the fairies. >>>>> Wikipedia isn't a highly trustworthy source >>>> Have fun listing anything that is >>> The release year stated by the author of a work on their own >>> website. >> Which doesnt exist anymore > It exists enough that I can find it and use it as a source that's > more trustworthy than the AI BS. Only with that very unusual question >>> Also the text that's part of the work itself. >> Which is hardly ever available with most questions > Ha! He gives up. More of your lies > Yes I picked that test question because I knew > there was a trustworthy answer available, so I'd know if Gemini > gave me another answer then it was wrong, not me. Using Gemini > for such things would mean asking questions where I might not be > able to easily tell if it's started making facts up like that, and > that's a prime reason not to use it! It's evidence that the AI > output is untrustworthy and misleading. And you stupidly claimed that that is what always happens >>>>> even when the pages are_ relevent, >>>> More of your mindless bullshit >>>>> but clearly its content is weighted highly by the AI algorithm. >>>> Its actually weighted by who modifys the page >>> It doesn't know who modified the page, >> That is trivial to check if you want to know that > It's not trivial to check which real-world human it was You don't need to do that > and whether they know what they are writing about. Trivial to check what else they have modified >>> it can't even figure out >>> the name Josef Jahn doesn't match "Shaun O'Sullivan and Stewart >>> Andreason". >>>>> As I pointed out before, a specific search at The Mod Archive >>>>> brought up the correct information easily, so it was out there on >>>>> the web. Also on the artist's dead website in the Internet Archive. >>>>> But if you trusted Gemini you'd believe its lies instead of finding >>>>> the true info yourself. >>>> You don't have to trust, you are free to check the sources it >>>> provides, >>>> just like with a google search, but with far less farting around >>> Not when it doesn't provide you any sources! >> There you go again with your stupid lie about any sources > There you go again with your stupid lie about Gemini always giving > sources. It does >>> And when it does, >>> checking all those and weeding out the junk to tell how much of its >>> answer you can believe is more work than just reading one good >>> search result from a decent source in the first place. >> Have fun actually finding that > Just because you can't figure out how to use a search engine... Even more pathetic than you usually manage and that's saying something
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“Cognitive surrender” leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds keithr0 <me@bugger.off.com.au> - 2026-04-04 21:51 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2026-04-05 08:42 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2026-04-05 08:59 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds keithr0 <me@bugger.off.com.au> - 2026-04-05 14:25 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2026-04-05 15:36 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds keithr0 <me@bugger.off.com.au> - 2026-04-05 19:20 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2026-04-06 01:53 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds Axel <none@not.here> - 2026-04-05 21:20 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2026-04-06 01:55 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds keithr0 <me@bugger.off.com.au> - 2026-04-06 09:47 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2026-04-06 10:22 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2026-04-06 08:22 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2026-04-06 09:26 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2026-04-07 07:53 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2026-04-07 08:42 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds Axel <none@not.here> - 2026-04-06 10:32 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds keithr0 <me@bugger.off.com.au> - 2026-04-06 13:28 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds Axel <none@not.here> - 2026-04-06 14:33 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds keithr0 <me@bugger.off.com.au> - 2026-04-06 21:40 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2026-04-07 03:20 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds keithr0 <me@bugger.off.com.au> - 2026-04-07 15:27 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2026-04-07 16:48 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2026-04-06 15:42 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2026-04-07 08:18 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2026-04-07 08:52 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds Axel <none@not.here> - 2026-04-05 21:19 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2026-04-06 08:06 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2026-04-06 08:25 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds keithr0 <me@bugger.off.com.au> - 2026-04-06 09:49 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2026-04-06 10:26 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds keithr0 <me@bugger.off.com.au> - 2026-04-06 13:30 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2026-04-06 15:45 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds keithr0 <me@bugger.off.com.au> - 2026-04-06 21:38 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2026-04-07 03:17 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds keithr0 <me@bugger.off.com.au> - 2026-04-07 15:29 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2026-04-07 16:50 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds Axel <none@not.here> - 2026-04-06 11:38 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2026-04-07 08:36 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2026-04-07 09:34 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2026-04-08 09:12 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2026-04-08 10:25 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> - 2026-04-08 12:08 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2026-04-08 14:07 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds Axel <none@not.here> - 2026-04-06 10:52 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds keithr0 <me@bugger.off.com.au> - 2026-04-06 13:31 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds Axel <none@not.here> - 2026-04-06 14:35 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2026-04-06 15:48 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds keithr0 <me@bugger.off.com.au> - 2026-04-06 21:37 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2026-04-07 03:14 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds keithr0 <me@bugger.off.com.au> - 2026-04-07 15:31 +1000
Re: "Cognitive surrender" leads AI users to abandon logical thinking, research finds "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2026-04-07 16:53 +1000
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