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Re: Astronomy and programming languages

From Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: Astronomy and programming languages
Date 2017-06-03 13:53 -0500
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <ogv0ck$oua$2@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References <2017Jun3.110911@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <0d8d485a-0917-4211-815c-043bb970db4a@googlegroups.com> <2017Jun3.164811@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>

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On 6/3/2017 9:48 AM, Anton Ertl wrote:
> NN <november.nihal@gmail.com> writes:
>> Can you elaborate on what you meant when you refer to positions many present as forth philosopy ? What are these positions and who is presenting these ?
> 
> Apparently the positions are not clear enough from the way I
> contrasted them with the reasons for using Python, so I'll make them
> more explicit here:
> 
> 1) C and other languages are evil or at least there is nothing of
>     value there, so we don't need to interface with them (except for
>     dealing with the OS).  We certainly don't need to interface with C
>     or Fortran libraries, see also 3).  (There is even a meme here that
>     rejects a feature with the (usually incorrect) argument that it
>     would make Forth more like C; e.g., some argued against number
>     prefixes such as $10 and #10 with that argument, even though $10
>     and #10 are not part of C).
> 
> 2) We must minimize everything at all costs.  Consuming a KB or an MB
>     for a convenience feature is against the Forth philosophy; whether
>     we have GBs of RAM to spare does not matter.
> 
> 3) Libraries are "full of inefficient code to take care of
>    all possible cases, etc."
> 
> 4) There is no need to standardize a feature if you can already do it
>     on some systems using carnal knowledge.  The value of the standard
>     is in programmer portability.  Loading programs unchanged is not
>     relevant to real programmers, and requiring to change some lines of
>     code in various places is the proper way to deal with moving code
>     between directories or computers.
> 
> As for who, I'll not put names here to protect the guilty.  Also,
> these positions are often held by multiple people, so picking out
> one would not be fair.
> 
> - anton
> 
Thank you for the above and your initial comment, it's something that 
needed to be said by someone that will not be ignored. Hopefully this 
gets through my email program mangled the original post.

I believe that the Forth for embedded CPUs and desktop although related 
should be different beast. For embedded system lean an mean and close to 
the metal is the order of the day. For Desktop the same plus a 
collection libraries to get things done quickly.

And its also very important the language should be source compatible 
across multiple Forth systems. Right now many push the idea of 
programmer compatible, but not source compatible that ends killing the 
use of the language. Now when I'm going to write a program I have to 
consider which Forth system to use as its way too easy to write a 
program in one Forth and not run in another Forth. And I'm not talking 
about fancy extra features but Forth as defined by the ANS Standard will 
not run from one ANS Forth versus another ANS Forth that kind of 
nonsense will not fly if you want to make Forth popular again.

-- 
Cecil - k5nwa

-- 
Cecil - k5nwa

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Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-03 09:09 +0000
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2017-06-03 04:38 -0700
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-03 13:45 +0000
      Re: Astronomy and programming languages krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2017-06-03 08:46 -0700
      Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-03 18:49 +0000
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-03 18:48 +0000
      Re: Astronomy and programming languages krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2017-06-03 13:33 -0700
        Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-03 22:34 +0000
        Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-04 03:05 -0500
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2017-06-03 05:58 -0700
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2017-06-03 06:01 -0700
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-03 13:37 +0000
      Re: Astronomy and programming languages foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2017-06-03 07:28 -0700
        Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-10 17:31 +0000
      Re: Astronomy and programming languages mhx@iae.nl - 2017-06-03 08:21 -0700
        Re: Astronomy and programming languages Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 12:01 -0700
          Re: Astronomy and programming languages mhx@iae.nl - 2017-06-03 13:09 -0700
          Re: Astronomy and programming languages mhx@iae.nl - 2017-06-03 13:20 -0700
            Re: Astronomy and programming languages Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 18:30 -0700
            Re: Astronomy and programming languages Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 18:43 -0700
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-10 17:52 +0000
            Re: Astronomy and programming languages Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 19:15 -0700
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages mhx@iae.nl - 2017-06-04 00:19 -0700
            Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-10 17:39 +0000
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages NN <november.nihal@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 06:57 -0700
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-03 14:48 +0000
      Re: Astronomy and programming languages NN <november.nihal@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 11:12 -0700
        Re: Astronomy and programming languages Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-06-06 06:28 -0700
          Re: Astronomy and programming languages minforth@arcor.de - 2017-06-06 06:56 -0700
          Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-07 19:40 +0000
          Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-08 05:10 -0500
            Re: Astronomy and programming languages Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-06-08 04:28 -0700
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-08 07:20 -0500
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-09 04:08 -0500
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-06-09 02:31 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-06-09 03:54 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-06-09 05:00 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-06-09 04:03 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-09 08:37 -0500
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-06-09 09:27 -0700
      Re: Astronomy and programming languages Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-06-03 13:49 -0500
        Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-04 03:11 -0500
          Re: Astronomy and programming languages Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-06-04 17:20 -0700
            Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-07 03:10 -0500
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-07 19:41 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-08 11:48 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-09 17:25 +0000
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-06-10 00:31 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-06-10 08:18 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-06-16 00:23 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-06-16 07:40 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-11 02:21 -0500
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2017-06-14 23:36 -0700
      Re: Astronomy and programming languages Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-06-03 13:53 -0500
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages mhx@iae.nl - 2017-06-03 08:04 -0700
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 11:29 -0400
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2017-06-03 08:55 -0700
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 09:57 -0700
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-06-03 10:35 -0700
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-06-03 19:44 +0200
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 10:15 -0700
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-06-06 06:20 -0700
      Re: Astronomy and programming languages Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-06-06 07:13 -0700
        Re: Astronomy and programming languages minforth@arcor.de - 2017-06-06 08:21 -0700
          Re: Astronomy and programming languages Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-06-06 09:05 -0700
        Re: Astronomy and programming languages Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-06-06 23:49 -0700
          Re: Astronomy and programming languages Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-06-07 00:58 -0700
        Re: Astronomy and programming languages Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-06-07 16:05 -0400
          Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-07 20:26 +0000
            Re: Astronomy and programming languages Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-06-07 14:00 -0700
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-06-07 15:46 -0700
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-07 23:06 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-06-08 01:24 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-09 17:27 +0000
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-07 23:08 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-06-07 22:26 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-06-08 01:29 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-06-08 08:28 -0400
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-06-08 08:02 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-06-08 01:26 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-09 17:30 +0000
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-08 05:17 -0500
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-06-08 04:37 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-08 07:28 -0500
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-09 17:33 +0000
            Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-08 11:46 +0000
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-09 17:35 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-10 02:18 -0500
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-10 07:54 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-10 08:00 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-06-10 08:38 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-11 17:53 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-06-11 18:03 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-11 18:17 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-06-11 18:23 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-06-11 19:21 +0100
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-06-11 18:24 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-06-11 19:28 +0100
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-06-11 19:04 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-06-11 21:13 +0100
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-06-11 21:22 +0100
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-06-12 03:11 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-12 07:38 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-06-12 08:13 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-06-12 11:22 +0100
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-06-12 11:48 +0100
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-12 13:58 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-06-13 02:19 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-10 13:16 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-11 17:53 +0000
            Re: Astronomy and programming languages Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-06-08 08:28 -0400
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-09 17:38 +0000
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-03 12:23 -0500
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-06-03 10:27 -0700
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-03 18:46 +0000
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 12:42 -0700
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-03 22:24 +0000
      Re: Astronomy and programming languages Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 15:34 -0700
        Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-03 22:55 +0000
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-06-10 10:27 -0700
  A Small Challenge (Re: Astronomy and programming languages) Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-06-12 22:20 -0700
    Re: A Small Challenge (Re: Astronomy and programming languages) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-06-12 22:52 -0700
    Re: A Small Challenge (Re: Astronomy and programming languages) Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-06-13 10:04 -0400
    Re: A Small Challenge (Re: Astronomy and programming languages) minforth@arcor.de - 2017-06-13 07:30 -0700
    Re: A Small Challenge (Re: Astronomy and programming languages) Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-06-13 10:52 -0500

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