Astronomy and programming languages

From	anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl)
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Astronomy and programming languages
Date	2017-06-03 09:09 +0000
Organization	Institut fuer Computersprachen, Technische Universitaet Wien
Message-ID	<2017Jun3.110911@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> (permalink)

Show all headers | View raw

LWN has an article about the use Python in Science; it reports on a
talk given by an astronomer; the article is

https://lwn.net/Articles/724255/

(or, if you are not a subscriber, and don't want to wait until it
becomes available for guest readers,
<https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/724255/f4d359c97e185889/>).

The talk itself (that I did not look at because of JavaScript) is at

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyjCqQEUa8o
https://speakerdeck.com/jakevdp/the-unexpected-effectiveness-of-python-in-science

The interesting thing for Forthers context is that Forth used to be
very strong in astronomy.  There is a section in the article titled
"Why Python?"  Some of the reasons mentioned there are an antithesis
to the positions many present as Forth philosophy: It is used
because:

* it works nicely with other languages such as C and Fortran, rather
  than doing everything yourself because you can do it better.

* it has a "battries included" philopsophy of providing all sorts of
  extras rather than minimalism that worries about kilobytes on a
  gigabyte machine.

* there is a huge number of third-party libraries that can be and are
  used, even though they are 'full of inefficient code to take care of
  all possible cases, etc.'

* You can publish the Python code, and another scientist can use it to
  reproduce your result (and check what you did to the data to get the
  result).  This requires a stronger level of portability than the
  concept of "programmer portability" or the attitude "you can do it
  on every system using carnal knowledge" that we can often see here.

So, while the positions that are often called the Forth philosophy
have their virtues in some contexts, they are probably a major
contributor for Forth's decline in astronomy.

Some want to make us believe that the reason for the lack of
popularity of Forth is the lack of a marketing campaign by a big
corporation, but if that was the case, astronomers would be
programming in PL/I, not Python.  Also, it's pretty hard to wean
programmers off their favourite language, and network effects make it
easy for a language to stay in a field where it is strong.  Forth
obviously dropped the ball in astronomy.

Anyway, my conclusions: The positions that are usually presented as
Forth philosophy are not beneficial in every case, so we should not
treat them as absolutes.  And some of the things that are often
maligned here, in particular, libraries, are actually helpful in many
cases.

- anton
-- 
M. Anton Ertl  http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
     New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
   EuroForth 2017: http://www.euroforth.org/ef17/

Back to comp.lang.forth | Previous | Next — Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread

Thread

Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-03 09:09 +0000
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2017-06-03 04:38 -0700
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-03 13:45 +0000
      Re: Astronomy and programming languages krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2017-06-03 08:46 -0700
      Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-03 18:49 +0000
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-03 18:48 +0000
      Re: Astronomy and programming languages krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2017-06-03 13:33 -0700
        Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-03 22:34 +0000
        Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-04 03:05 -0500
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2017-06-03 05:58 -0700
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2017-06-03 06:01 -0700
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-03 13:37 +0000
      Re: Astronomy and programming languages foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2017-06-03 07:28 -0700
        Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-10 17:31 +0000
      Re: Astronomy and programming languages mhx@iae.nl - 2017-06-03 08:21 -0700
        Re: Astronomy and programming languages Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 12:01 -0700
          Re: Astronomy and programming languages mhx@iae.nl - 2017-06-03 13:09 -0700
          Re: Astronomy and programming languages mhx@iae.nl - 2017-06-03 13:20 -0700
            Re: Astronomy and programming languages Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 18:30 -0700
            Re: Astronomy and programming languages Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 18:43 -0700
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-10 17:52 +0000
            Re: Astronomy and programming languages Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 19:15 -0700
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages mhx@iae.nl - 2017-06-04 00:19 -0700
            Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-10 17:39 +0000
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages NN <november.nihal@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 06:57 -0700
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-03 14:48 +0000
      Re: Astronomy and programming languages NN <november.nihal@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 11:12 -0700
        Re: Astronomy and programming languages Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-06-06 06:28 -0700
          Re: Astronomy and programming languages minforth@arcor.de - 2017-06-06 06:56 -0700
          Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-07 19:40 +0000
          Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-08 05:10 -0500
            Re: Astronomy and programming languages Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-06-08 04:28 -0700
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-08 07:20 -0500
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-09 04:08 -0500
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-06-09 02:31 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-06-09 03:54 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-06-09 05:00 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-06-09 04:03 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-09 08:37 -0500
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-06-09 09:27 -0700
      Re: Astronomy and programming languages Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-06-03 13:49 -0500
        Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-04 03:11 -0500
          Re: Astronomy and programming languages Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-06-04 17:20 -0700
            Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-07 03:10 -0500
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-07 19:41 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-08 11:48 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-09 17:25 +0000
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-06-10 00:31 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-06-10 08:18 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-06-16 00:23 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-06-16 07:40 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-11 02:21 -0500
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2017-06-14 23:36 -0700
      Re: Astronomy and programming languages Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-06-03 13:53 -0500
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages mhx@iae.nl - 2017-06-03 08:04 -0700
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 11:29 -0400
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2017-06-03 08:55 -0700
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 09:57 -0700
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-06-03 10:35 -0700
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-06-03 19:44 +0200
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 10:15 -0700
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-06-06 06:20 -0700
      Re: Astronomy and programming languages Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-06-06 07:13 -0700
        Re: Astronomy and programming languages minforth@arcor.de - 2017-06-06 08:21 -0700
          Re: Astronomy and programming languages Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-06-06 09:05 -0700
        Re: Astronomy and programming languages Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-06-06 23:49 -0700
          Re: Astronomy and programming languages Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-06-07 00:58 -0700
        Re: Astronomy and programming languages Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-06-07 16:05 -0400
          Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-07 20:26 +0000
            Re: Astronomy and programming languages Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-06-07 14:00 -0700
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-06-07 15:46 -0700
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-07 23:06 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-06-08 01:24 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-09 17:27 +0000
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-07 23:08 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-06-07 22:26 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-06-08 01:29 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-06-08 08:28 -0400
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-06-08 08:02 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-06-08 01:26 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-09 17:30 +0000
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-08 05:17 -0500
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-06-08 04:37 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-08 07:28 -0500
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-09 17:33 +0000
            Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-08 11:46 +0000
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-09 17:35 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-10 02:18 -0500
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-10 07:54 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-10 08:00 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-06-10 08:38 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-11 17:53 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-06-11 18:03 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-11 18:17 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-06-11 18:23 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-06-11 19:21 +0100
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-06-11 18:24 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-06-11 19:28 +0100
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-06-11 19:04 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-06-11 21:13 +0100
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-06-11 21:22 +0100
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-06-12 03:11 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-12 07:38 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-06-12 08:13 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-06-12 11:22 +0100
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-06-12 11:48 +0100
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-12 13:58 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-06-13 02:19 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-10 13:16 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-11 17:53 +0000
            Re: Astronomy and programming languages Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-06-08 08:28 -0400
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-09 17:38 +0000
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-03 12:23 -0500
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-06-03 10:27 -0700
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-03 18:46 +0000
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 12:42 -0700
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-03 22:24 +0000
      Re: Astronomy and programming languages Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 15:34 -0700
        Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-03 22:55 +0000
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-06-10 10:27 -0700
  A Small Challenge (Re: Astronomy and programming languages) Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-06-12 22:20 -0700
    Re: A Small Challenge (Re: Astronomy and programming languages) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-06-12 22:52 -0700
    Re: A Small Challenge (Re: Astronomy and programming languages) Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-06-13 10:04 -0400
    Re: A Small Challenge (Re: Astronomy and programming languages) minforth@arcor.de - 2017-06-13 07:30 -0700
    Re: A Small Challenge (Re: Astronomy and programming languages) Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-06-13 10:52 -0500

csiph-web