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Re: Astronomy and programming languages

From anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl)
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: Astronomy and programming languages
Date 2017-06-12 07:38 +0000
Organization Institut fuer Computersprachen, Technische Universitaet Wien
Message-ID <2017Jun12.093824@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> (permalink)
References (9 earlier) <ohk1uf$2qg$2@dont-email.me> <ohk47f$sn4$7@news.albasani.net> <ohk824$p05$1@dont-email.me> <ohk8jb$ql9$1@dont-email.me> <ohl0pp$lh9$1@news.albasani.net>

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Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> writes:
>You basically claim that allocating new block then releasing old one when
>performing update, have same performance as updating in place?

It can actually be faster, by a lot, because you can write the new
blocks contiguously.  That was the main point of
[ousterhout&douglis89] (the position paper on log-structured file
systems).  Conventional file systems added clustering to gain similar
benefits when writing new files, but random writes to existing blocks
are still slow (on rotating disks due to seeks, on SSDs due to write
amplification).

Of course database implementors knew that and designed their databases
to avoid that problem as far as possible.  That a program optimized
for direct overwriting does not necessarily also perform well on a
copy-on-write file system should be no surprise.

The funny thing is that databases also have their own
not-directly-overwriting implementation of the writes they do (e.g.,
using journaling, maybe also COW), in order to support transactions.
And on SSDs there is another COW layer in the SSD firmware, to deal
with the large block sizes on SSDs.  I wonder how a database and file
system designed for this stack (rather than each designed for a
direct-overwrite substrate) would perform, and how it would perform in
comparison to a database designed to work on raw flash.

@Article{ousterhout&douglis89,
  author =	 {John Ousterhout and Fred Douglis},
  title =	 {Beating the {I/O} Bottleneck: A Case for
                  Log-Structured File Systems},
  journal =	 {Operating Systems Review},
  year =	 {1989},
  volume =	 {23},
  number =	 {1},
  pages =	 {11--28},
  month =	 jan,
  annote =	 {Predicts that I/O (in particular, disk seeks during
                  file access) would become a bottleneck, because the
                  CPUs are becoming faster faster than disk seeks;
                  they were certainly right about the speedups, but
                  the file access bottleneck has not happened in my
                  environment yet (1999); we still have systems with
                  0.08 disks per concurrent user on a 1200~MIPS
                  machine doing software development, whereas the
                  paper predicts requiring 20--80 disks per user on a
                  500~MIPS machine. The paper discusses a number of
                  solutions for these problems: large file caches for
                  eliminating most reads (this happens on our system),
                  write-back caches with battery backup and
                  alternatively, cache logging, and log-structured
                  file systems.  The paper presents log-structured file
                  systems in some depth.}
}

- anton
-- 
M. Anton Ertl  http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
     New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
   EuroForth 2017: http://www.euroforth.org/ef17/

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Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-03 09:09 +0000
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2017-06-03 04:38 -0700
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-03 13:45 +0000
      Re: Astronomy and programming languages krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2017-06-03 08:46 -0700
      Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-03 18:49 +0000
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-03 18:48 +0000
      Re: Astronomy and programming languages krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2017-06-03 13:33 -0700
        Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-03 22:34 +0000
        Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-04 03:05 -0500
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2017-06-03 05:58 -0700
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2017-06-03 06:01 -0700
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-03 13:37 +0000
      Re: Astronomy and programming languages foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2017-06-03 07:28 -0700
        Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-10 17:31 +0000
      Re: Astronomy and programming languages mhx@iae.nl - 2017-06-03 08:21 -0700
        Re: Astronomy and programming languages Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 12:01 -0700
          Re: Astronomy and programming languages mhx@iae.nl - 2017-06-03 13:09 -0700
          Re: Astronomy and programming languages mhx@iae.nl - 2017-06-03 13:20 -0700
            Re: Astronomy and programming languages Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 18:30 -0700
            Re: Astronomy and programming languages Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 18:43 -0700
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-10 17:52 +0000
            Re: Astronomy and programming languages Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 19:15 -0700
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages mhx@iae.nl - 2017-06-04 00:19 -0700
            Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-10 17:39 +0000
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages NN <november.nihal@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 06:57 -0700
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-03 14:48 +0000
      Re: Astronomy and programming languages NN <november.nihal@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 11:12 -0700
        Re: Astronomy and programming languages Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-06-06 06:28 -0700
          Re: Astronomy and programming languages minforth@arcor.de - 2017-06-06 06:56 -0700
          Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-07 19:40 +0000
          Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-08 05:10 -0500
            Re: Astronomy and programming languages Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-06-08 04:28 -0700
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-08 07:20 -0500
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-09 04:08 -0500
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-06-09 02:31 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-06-09 03:54 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-06-09 05:00 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-06-09 04:03 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-09 08:37 -0500
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-06-09 09:27 -0700
      Re: Astronomy and programming languages Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-06-03 13:49 -0500
        Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-04 03:11 -0500
          Re: Astronomy and programming languages Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-06-04 17:20 -0700
            Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-07 03:10 -0500
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-07 19:41 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-08 11:48 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-09 17:25 +0000
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-06-10 00:31 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-06-10 08:18 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-06-16 00:23 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-06-16 07:40 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-11 02:21 -0500
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2017-06-14 23:36 -0700
      Re: Astronomy and programming languages Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-06-03 13:53 -0500
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages mhx@iae.nl - 2017-06-03 08:04 -0700
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 11:29 -0400
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2017-06-03 08:55 -0700
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 09:57 -0700
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-06-03 10:35 -0700
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-06-03 19:44 +0200
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 10:15 -0700
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-06-06 06:20 -0700
      Re: Astronomy and programming languages Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-06-06 07:13 -0700
        Re: Astronomy and programming languages minforth@arcor.de - 2017-06-06 08:21 -0700
          Re: Astronomy and programming languages Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-06-06 09:05 -0700
        Re: Astronomy and programming languages Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-06-06 23:49 -0700
          Re: Astronomy and programming languages Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-06-07 00:58 -0700
        Re: Astronomy and programming languages Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-06-07 16:05 -0400
          Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-07 20:26 +0000
            Re: Astronomy and programming languages Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-06-07 14:00 -0700
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-06-07 15:46 -0700
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-07 23:06 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-06-08 01:24 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-09 17:27 +0000
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-07 23:08 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-06-07 22:26 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-06-08 01:29 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-06-08 08:28 -0400
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-06-08 08:02 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-06-08 01:26 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-09 17:30 +0000
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-08 05:17 -0500
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-06-08 04:37 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-08 07:28 -0500
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-09 17:33 +0000
            Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-08 11:46 +0000
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-09 17:35 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-10 02:18 -0500
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-10 07:54 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-10 08:00 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-06-10 08:38 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-11 17:53 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-06-11 18:03 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-11 18:17 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-06-11 18:23 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-06-11 19:21 +0100
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-06-11 18:24 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-06-11 19:28 +0100
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-06-11 19:04 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-06-11 21:13 +0100
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-06-11 21:22 +0100
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-06-12 03:11 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-12 07:38 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-06-12 08:13 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-06-12 11:22 +0100
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-06-12 11:48 +0100
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-12 13:58 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-06-13 02:19 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-10 13:16 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-11 17:53 +0000
            Re: Astronomy and programming languages Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-06-08 08:28 -0400
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-09 17:38 +0000
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-03 12:23 -0500
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-06-03 10:27 -0700
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-03 18:46 +0000
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 12:42 -0700
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-03 22:24 +0000
      Re: Astronomy and programming languages Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 15:34 -0700
        Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-03 22:55 +0000
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-06-10 10:27 -0700
  A Small Challenge (Re: Astronomy and programming languages) Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-06-12 22:20 -0700
    Re: A Small Challenge (Re: Astronomy and programming languages) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-06-12 22:52 -0700
    Re: A Small Challenge (Re: Astronomy and programming languages) Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-06-13 10:04 -0400
    Re: A Small Challenge (Re: Astronomy and programming languages) minforth@arcor.de - 2017-06-13 07:30 -0700
    Re: A Small Challenge (Re: Astronomy and programming languages) Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-06-13 10:52 -0500

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